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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
PGA National
« on: March 04, 2007, 12:27:06 AM »
It's been a rare thing here the last few days: a new PGA tour host course, yet almost no discussion here. Does anyone have any thoughts to share?

One of my own: The Bear Trap is indeed tough, but really: two par three's of nearly the same length, in nearly the same direction, and basically the same design - in the space of three holes?

To those who have played it, do you notice the apparent repetitiveness as you play the holes?

One other thought is about the craziness of what it takes to create a three-shot par-5 these days, and how it's more evidence that something ought to be done about the ball. For example:

Oakmont: 667 yards with 5-inch rough and 20 bunkers.
PGA National: 604 yards with water on both sides and 16 bunkers. Oh, wait. Camillo Villegas hit the green in two. Nevermind.

Matt_Ward

Re:PGA National
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2007, 03:27:59 PM »
Matt C:

I've played The Champ a few times and although I have a certain love affair feeling with so many other Florida layouts I would rate The Champ as one of the best overall layouts you can play in SE Florida.

The course requires solid play and the set-up from what I can see from viewing on TV seems to be quite fair.

The final four holes -- starting from the par-3 15th are well done and very particular about the kind of shots that will succeed.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:PGA National
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2007, 06:50:51 PM »
Clearly the 18th is one tough hole to birdie, I think it's the angles that throw the drives off, and the distance that keep them from going for it in 2.

Is this the formula to stop the birdies on par 5's?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 06:51:14 PM by cary lichtenstein »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Paul Payne

Re:PGA National
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2007, 06:52:53 PM »
Having never played the course it is hard for me to make a real judgement, however, I really dislike the "Beartrap". In fact, I am growing very tired of Nicklaus designs in general.

I will take for example #18. A hole that Jordan Wall or any of his pals could have easily cooked up (no offense to Jordan). It is pure penalty. A double doglegged par five water on the right bunkered at every corner rough as high as summer corn mess. One could possibly call this a good tournament hole simply for the fact that if you follow the rules and execute you will prevail. over time though, wouldn't this be the epitome of boring???

I have seen small signs of this type of thinking in a lot of Jacks designs but this one takes the cake. In fact the whole "Bear Trap" mentality is based on the same mindless requirements. Couldn't any of us design a hole with such lack of creativity?

OK, I'll put my wine glass down and listen, but I have decided that Nicklaus destination courses are hereby off my list (yes I know about Dismal blah blah, I even enjoyed Kiele.) I just don't know if I want to keep searching so hard for the elements that I like vs. dislike.

Whew! pour me another glass would you sweethart?

« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 07:15:05 PM by Paul Payne »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:PGA National
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2007, 09:09:36 PM »
I found this to be a very average course with the Bear trap group of holes far and away the best part of the course. I cannot believe if it was anywhere else and had a different name that it would be worthy of even a small discussion.

Paul Payne

Re:PGA National
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2007, 09:19:25 PM »
Tiger,

Though I have to reluctantly agree with you, I have to ask why you believe the beartrap to be the best part of the course? Is it because it is simply so overtly penal? do you really see good design in all of this?

I know you have played a lot of the greats so understand I am asking in ernest.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:PGA National
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2007, 10:34:33 PM »
Having never played the course it is hard for me to make a real judgement, however, I really dislike the "Beartrap". In fact, I am growing very tired of Nicklaus designs in general.

I will take for example #18. A hole that Jordan Wall or any of his pals could have easily cooked up (no offense to Jordan). It is pure penalty. A double doglegged par five water on the right bunkered at every corner rough as high as summer corn mess. One could possibly call this a good tournament hole simply for the fact that if you follow the rules and execute you will prevail. over time though, wouldn't this be the epitome of boring???

I have seen small signs of this type of thinking in a lot of Jacks designs but this one takes the cake. In fact the whole "Bear Trap" mentality is based on the same mindless requirements. Couldn't any of us design a hole with such lack of creativity?

OK, I'll put my wine glass down and listen, but I have decided that Nicklaus destination courses are hereby off my list (yes I know about Dismal blah blah, I even enjoyed Kiele.) I just don't know if I want to keep searching so hard for the elements that I like vs. dislike.

Whew! pour me another glass would you sweethart?


Paul--

I found 18 (and 15, 16, and 17) to be extremely entertaining today.  Number 18, especially.  In an age where many people (especially on this site) bemoan the lack of shotmaking that is done on Tour due to the straightforward nature of the holes, I found the final four holes at The Champion to be a refreshing departure.  I'll also argue that 18 is a strategic hole.  Sure, you need to hit your tee ball down a landing strip, but you've got a few options on your second shot.  You can either hit a short layup to the wider part of the fairway about 150 yards from the hole or you can gamble a bit and try to leave yourself ~100 yards in a much narrower bit of fairway.  Oh by the way, that second option, if successful, will yield you a much better angle to the hole, especially for today's pin position.  And back on 16, the further right you hit your tee shot (and the closer to the water), the shorter your second shot.  To me, the last four holes were tremendously exciting, and lo and behold, the finish of today's play was some of the most entertaining golf this year (which many people missed because the big headliners were not around).

I'll grant you that 15 and 17 are very nearly identical, but they are solid, tough holes.  I give the Tour credit for making them as different as they could today.  For me, it's fun to watch those guys struggle to make pars.  I love it when the winning score is worse than -10.  I believe it identifies the steadiest and mentally strongest player much more effectively than a -20+ birdiefest.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:PGA National
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2007, 10:44:21 PM »
I felt really badly for young Boo Weekly, who is from a town just outside here in Pensacola.  He is a great young kid, a little bit "country," and it would have been great if he'd made that putt to win.  As it was he had to make a five footer to avoid four putts!

I don't know how much fun the "Bear Trap" would be for member play, but it was interesting to see how tough they were for the pros.  Maybe that's why so few of the top guys were there......

Paul Payne

Re:PGA National
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2007, 11:01:41 PM »
Tim,

I have to reluctantly agree with you that the final holes made for good television. I am still not convinced they represent good architecture.

I'm sure I am not the only one on this site who has occasionally sketched a great hole on a napkin somewhere. Unfortunately most of the time, the more you develop the sketch the more it looks like the kind of holes that made up the last of this course. They become lifeless. Penalty and reward but no vision. I am not sure you couldn't develop a computer program that could come up with the same design.

I am saying that something that makes for good television may not make inspired course design.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 09:25:21 AM by Paul Payne »

Martin Del Vecchio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:PGA National
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2007, 09:04:01 AM »
There is another "Bear Trap" At Ocean Hammock.  

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:PGA National
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2007, 05:06:38 PM »
Congrats to Mark Wilson on his 1st PGA Tour win. At 5'8" and 145 lbs., he again demonstrates (contrary to the opinion of Jack Nicklaus) that you can win on the Tour without being a "bomb and gouger" or 6'2" and 180 lbs. The putt he made to save par on the 72nd hole yesterday was huge.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 06:10:01 PM by David_Tepper »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:PGA National
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2007, 05:47:30 PM »
I watched very little, but 18 seemed a pretty good hole...not everyone and their mother got home in two, the layup seemed testing esp if one's drive found the rough....
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:PGA National
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2007, 10:03:35 PM »
So if the winning score is -5 the pros were tested, but if it was -13 they weren't tested ?
-5 was only acheived by changing the par on two par 5's to par 4's.
(I know driver, 7 iron is a better test than driver, 3 iron.)

Not sure what that proved, but it's a time honored tradition for the USGA so it must be right ;)

just not used to seeing it on a "newly redesigned" course
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey