Johnny Miller's Thanksgiving Point (with pics)

[Kalen Braley]

Hi All,

Thanksgiving Point is a Johnny Miller design located in Northern Utah about 25 minutes south of downtown. It can be stretched to over 7600 yards from the tips, but yet still very accomadating for the high handicapper.  The collection of par 3s are its most distinct feature, climaxing on the 17th hole which is nothing short of spectacular.  This is not to downplay the other set of solid par 4s and par 5s.  Its green complexes are some of the finest I've seen anywhere and it comes to a nice conclusion with a wonderful stretch of finishing holes 13-17.

Enough of my opinions, please form your own:

The front 9:

1st hole - Short par 4 with a long iron/utility wood to leave....


A short wedge into the green.


2nd hole - Reachable Par 5 with a wide open tee shot, but as you get closer to the green it pinches in.


3rd hole - A short driveable par 4 with a massive bunker in front...


And if you go left off the tee, are faced with this shot in:


4th hole - First of the par 3s, a fun downhill shot to a 3 tiered green.


5th hole - Another generous fairway which you may want to try to reach in 2, but trouble lurks;


This is looking back to the tee box.  Most of the fairways have swales in them like this one.


6th hole - Number 1 handicapper with blind tee shot.  There is OB left and a drop off to the Jordan River to the right.


But don't leave approach short right like I did..  


7th hole - The awesome 7th that could have been a nice redan version if the green sloped away.


8th hole - A shortish par 4 that if you drive left over the bunker will leave a wedge in.


9th hole - Another wide landing area that will leave this approach in:


A look at one of the more severe green complexes on the course:


Back 9 to be continued in the next post.

[Kalen Braley]

Back 9 continued;

10th hole - A medium length par 4 where you must negotiate the fairway bunkers:


Looking back down the hole...and no that putt was for double bogey  


11th hole - A long par 5 playing into the prevailing wind.  I would love to see the big boys hit this in two from the back tees over 600 yards.  This is the approach in:


12th hole - Tee shot. This hole doesn't fit at all with the rest of the course.  Can we give Johnny a mulligan and have him redo this one.  


13th hole - The fun starts with a medium par 4 that leaves this approach.


Looking back up the fairway:


14th hole - A wonderful, bite off as much as you can chew tee shot...


Which could leave you with this shot in:


I was in this greenside grass bunker in 2.  Can we get a ruling please.....


15th hole - A neat and pretty, short little par 3.  I really like this hole.


16th hole - Another great par 4 with a tight tee shot leaving this approach in.


Looking back up the fairway.


17th hole - Wow, wow, and wow.  Just a gorgeous hole.  Tee shot from mens tees:


Tee shot from kids tees:


Not only does trouble lurk in front, but also behind the green, correct yardage is a must:


18th hole - A bit of a letdown short par 4 final hole, but the view is nice enough.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Nice pictures, thanks.

"cough, cough, containment, cough, cough..."  

[Andrew Balakshin]

Nice pictures.

[Greg Cameron]

Kaylen, shaping looks beautiful, when were pics taken?helped with winter irrig. in    broadmoor,  just wondering if water would help dessication? maybe best to let it sleep or jump it out and get grass growing for paying customers?I like trees too, regardless of recent threads.how old this course?...Greg

[Matt_Cohn]

I played here in 2000 so my memory is hazy, but...

First of all, this course can be hard, and very very long from the back tees. It's nothing that would shock you if you've played a few Johnny Miller courses; I like most of his courses, and I liked this one. There is a lot of containment mounding, yes, and it sometimes struggles in comparison to the *giant* scale of the place. You can see the scale of things in almost every photo. This is a big course in a big place.

[Doug Siebert]

Love those rippled fairways!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Nice set of pictures Kalen.  

With everything brownish I can't decide if the 'ripling fairways' sit well in the landscape.  I'm in favour of having interesting fairway lies but do they make the course feel natural or not?

Tony

[peter_p]

Lays off Johnny, he designed this after eating a package of Ruffles, and he got the windmill hole out of the way right off the bat.

The ridges fit in with the overall view, flatter ones would look out of place. Water may be a scarce quantity in Utah, and what goes on, stays on. How different are those fairways from say, St. Andrews?

As to the dessication, there is ice on the water and snow in some bunkers. Grass looks like that in the winter.

I have only played one Miller course, Badlands in Vegas, which is on a difficult piece of property. I didn't feel highly about it, but I wouldn't hesistate to play here, as I think my stealth approach to the greens would be challenged.

Thumbs up.

[Kalen Braley]

Kaylen, shaping looks beautiful, when were pics taken?helped with winter irrig. in    broadmoor,  just wondering if water would help dessication? maybe best to let it sleep or jump it out and get grass growing for paying customers?I like trees too, regardless of recent threads.how old this course?...Greg

Greg,

I played the course in February during a warm spell that allowed the course to be open for a week or so.  To the best of my knowledge, the grass has simply gone dormant.  All the grass here in Utah looks like this in the Winter time.  Prior to that it was under snow for 2 months in cold temps.

That being said, the course is very green and lush during its normal spring/summer/fall season. I actually prefer playing it in the winter because it does play a lot more fast and firm.

[Kalen Braley]

I played here in 2000 so my memory is hazy, but...

First of all, this course can be hard, and very very long from the back tees. It's nothing that would shock you if you've played a few Johnny Miller courses; I like most of his courses, and I liked this one. There is a lot of containment mounding, yes, and it sometimes struggles in comparison to the *giant* scale of the place. You can see the scale of things in almost every photo. This is a big course in a big place.

Matt,

You are right, the scale of the place is "giant" indeed especially when you are the 7th tee or various other ones with the Wasatch mountains in the background.

The containment mounding is there, but most fairways are so wide, it usually doesn't come into play that much.

[Kalen Braley]

Nice set of pictures Kalen.  

With everything brownish I can't decide if the 'ripling fairways' sit well in the landscape.  I'm in favour of having interesting fairway lies but do they make the course feel natural or not?

Tony

Tony,

Good question.  Obviously one will never mistake playing in Utah for playing at a true links course.  That being said, not all of the fairways have the big ripples and swales in them.  The more extreme ones are 3,5,9,10,11, 14and 16.

I will say this about the swales, they don't feel out of proportion, and they feel about the right size as what "could" have been naturally found.  And this matches the spirit of naturalism in my mind because whether they are natural or not is not as important as if the player can tell if they are.

All this being said, this course, as well as most courses in Northern Utah sit on what was once the bottom of the Glacial Lake Bonneville.  So there are many places where the land is naturally undulating when the lake eventually drained and dried up.

[JohnV]

There is no such thing as a "grass bunker" in the rules of golf so I presume your ball was "through the green" (as defined in the rules of golf, not in the TV commentator's handbook since they only think it means beyond the green.)

Snow or natural ice are either loose impediments or an abnormal  ground condition at the player's option.

Therefore, you can either move the snow or ice and hope your ball doesn't move or take relief from it under Rule 25.

[Kalen Braley]

Lays off Johnny, he designed this after eating a package of Ruffles, and he got the windmill hole out of the way right off the bat.

The ridges fit in with the overall view, flatter ones would look out of place. Water may be a scarce quantity in Utah, and what goes on, stays on. How different are those fairways from say, St. Andrews?

As to the dessication, there is ice on the water and snow in some bunkers. Grass looks like that in the winter.

I have only played one Miller course, Badlands in Vegas, which is on a difficult piece of property. I didn't feel highly about it, but I wouldn't hesistate to play here, as I think my stealth approach to the greens would be challenged.

Thumbs up.

Kalen, is that your divot hole on the 17th tee?  

Pete,

Not quite sure what to make of your post.  Contrary to popular opinion, water is not that scarce in Utah.  While it is high desert territroy, the Wasatch Mountains hold a lot of snow that doesn't melt off fully until July.  And no, I won't even begin to compare these fairways to St. Andrews....

I've played 3 Johnny Miller courses now and this is my favorite.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

The pictures don't do the course justice. No fault of yours mind you but the scale and nature of what you encuonter when playing the course is far different when encountered in person.

You also have daily wind gusts that can whip through the property. TP doesn't surrender easy and those who tackle the layout from the tips had better bring plenty of game and some ammo as well !

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

I would agree, the scale of the course isn't captured here, as I am but a novice photographer.

And yes, the prevailing wind from the south usually does blow pretty firm making two of the par 5s unreachable, and the other 2 very reachable.

The biggest thing that I noticed from the photos is that they don't even begin to capture the undulation of the greens and its multiple tiers.

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks for the pictures Kalen.

I would agree that 17 is a pretty hole. I am not sure it is a very good golf hole though.

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks for the pictures Kalen.

I would agree that 17 is a pretty hole. I am not sure it is a very good golf hole though.

Interesting...

In my commentary, I mentioned its a wow hole and a gorgeous hole, but I hadn't really stopped to really think about it critically to analyze it.  

Why would you argue its not a good golf hole?  The forced carry?

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

The forced carry yes. But even more than that, golf is played on land. When a hole is surrounded on three sides with water, and what looks like junk on the fourth side then you are stretching the definition of golf. I am sure Johnny Miller would be able to keep his ball dry 99 times out of 100 on that hole. But how would his dad do. I like Geoff Ogilvy's characterization of much of current golf design. His feels designers are designing for him and his game and not permitting his dad to have any fun playing the game. Geoff has news for the designers. It is people like his dad that are the real consumers of their work.

[Garland Bayley]

Is it really Johnny Miller's Thanksgiving Point? Or is it Fred Bliss's Thanksgiving Point with signature by Johnny Miller. Looks like Fred has been in the business for at least 15 more years than Johnny. Now who do you think designed the course?  

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

The forced carry yes. But even more than that, golf is played on land. When a hole is surrounded on three sides with water, and what looks like junk on the fourth side then you are stretching the definition of golf. I am sure Johnny Miller would be able to keep his ball dry 99 times out of 100 on that hole. But how would his dad do. I like Geoff Ogilvy's characterization of much of current golf design. His feels designers are designing for him and his game and not permitting his dad to have any fun playing the game. Geoff has news for the designers. It is people like his dad that are the real consumers of their work.

Fair enough Garland if thats your feeling.  I'm guessing you would also agree that CPC #16 is not a good hole either with the forced carry and water on 3 sides as well?  

As to 17 at Thanksgiving Point, it fits well into Dr. MacKs description of the heroic nature of holes in my opinion.  While it looks very intimidating, there actually is lots of room from front to back, approx 45 yards from my estimation.  And its close to 70 yards wide.  So it really gives the golfers a feeling of a great accomplishment.

In addition it plays at least a club downhill, and pretty much anything that hits dry land will stay dry unless you fly it over the green and hit the downslope.

As to who did the lions share of the work, I didn't research that end of it.  But I know its common for guys like Jack and Arnie to stamp thier names on courses, so that may well be the same here.

On the website, it seems to make a distinction between the course he worked on and the ones that he and Bliss worked on for whats its worth.

http://www.johnnymiller.com/projects.htm

[Tom Dunne]

Kalen, CPC #16 has a bailout area to the left.

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

I guess the great piece missing here is, how long is the hole?

It doesn't look 70 yards wide from the pictures, so that is a surprise.

You may have noticed there is a large bail out area at Cypress Point.   It is even grassed fairway.   If I remember correctly, AM wrote in his book that you can play the 16th at CP with only a putter. Can you do so at TP's 17?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom there is also bailout on this hole as well.  The picture I included doesn't show it very well, but one can wedge it down to the kids tees which has both a tee box and an extended grassy area around that tee.  That would leave you with another wedge over to the green.

I'm still curious as to why this is no good, yet CPC is a world class hole.  That being said, I'm not even attempting to put this in CPC's category, but I do think it is a good hole aside from its wow factor.

And as Matt mentioned, the pictures don't do it justice.  Another side note to mention is the 16th green is down on the other side of the hill from the 17th tee box so as you come up over the hill and down to the tee box it unfolds before you on a very grand scale.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I guess the great piece missing here is, how long is the hole?

It doesn't look 70 yards wide from the pictures, so that is a surprise.

You may have noticed there is a large bail out area at Cypress Point.   It is even grassed fairway.   If I remember correctly, AM wrote in his book that you can play the 16th at CP with only a putter. Can you do so at TP's 17?

Garland,

The green is not that wide, but the green complex is a good 65-70 yards wide and there are 3 tiers to the green.

I agree the bailout area is small, but at 180 yards to the middle of the green the carry is not as severe as CPC either. From the tips its a whole different story.  It can play to 245 yards, but then if you choose to play from there, you would have to assume you have the proper golf skills to attempt it.

As to comparing holes merits based on whether they can be played with a putter, even TPC 17 can be played that way, but I doubt anyone would.  I see that as pretty irrelevant in this case.