trees

[LBaker]

I recently have changed my opinion about cutting down trees to create new or original views on old golf courses.  The global warming issue was the biggest factor, making me realize that tree's are necessary to help combat Co2.  

Listen, I am for cutting down a hand full of trees per year but thousands is too much.  We have made such strides in our industry to show how we perserve the environment.  With all the tree removal occuring around the country, we are taking a huge step back.  

A compromise must be made.  

[ed_getka]

Lindsey,
   There are plenty of places to grow trees on a golf course property without narrowing the playing corridors. Not to mention that the number of trees being cut down on golf courses absolutely pales in comparison to what is happening to the rainforests in South America.
   I certainly don't think trees should be cut down purely to enhance views new or old, but when the playability/strategy of a course is impacted by trees that have been added over the years there is no reason not to take them out IMO. In certain places like Pasatiempo on some holes there would be a liability issue to take out some trees so that can be a factor also.
    Just my  2 cents.

[Paul Payne]

ed,

I was wondering who would have the cojones to take this one up.

[ed_getka]

Paul,
  No cojones required, it is just my opinion which as my mother always told is just like an a**#ole, everybody has one.
   
I don't know the absolute facts on this one, but I would be surprised if what is happening on golf courses is more than 0.1% of the trees being taken down in the world. Which leads me to wonder how many cars would have to come off the road to equal the loss of a tree. Or for that matter population growth in this world which is going to use up an awful lot of resources. Simply a matter of perspective.

[Joe Hancock]

Paul,
  No cojones required, it is just my opinion which as my mother always told is just like an a**#ole, everybody has one.
   
I don't know the absolute facts on this one, but I would be surprised if what is happening on golf courses is more than 0.1% of the trees being taken down in the world.

Ed,

The total trees taken off courses probably doesn't make up 0.1% of the trees taken off the hillsides on the trip from Portland to Bandon.

Joe

[Paul Payne]

agreed.

It's just not so PC to want to chop trees. I don't think many on this board would take up the argument against you.

[ed_getka]

Joe,
   What do you have against clearcutting.  Just kidding. That is the type of example I am talking about. One hillside on the drive through NoCal on the way to Bandon and you see more trees gone than on golf courses.

Paul,
   I am always happy to hear the other perspective. I consider myself an environmentalist BTW.

[Joe Hancock]

I think one of the main reasons to remove trees from a golf course fits in ideally with Lindsey's advertised agronomic philosophies....less inputs. Better sun infiltration, better air movement almost always means less disease pressure. More sunlight means less applied fertilizer as the photosynthesis of the turf is more efficient to provide it's own food.

Riding a bike to work may likely have more positive effect on the environment.

Joe

[Paul Payne]

Joe,

Hmmmm..... I certainly see some equipment advances in your vision of the future. Perhaps a more pure game however.

[John Kirk]

Despite the fact I strongly believe humans contribute to the current warming trend, I am very much in favor of removing trees from old golf courses, to help restore them to their original intent.

[Adam Sherer]

When I went to school at the University of Vermont (a notorious "hippy," "tree-hugger" school) I realized that golf is  not the enemy to the environment. I was an Environmental Studies major with the focus of "Golf and the Environmemnt" and attended classes with other UVM students that had the desire to save the rainforest, save the environment, and save the world in general, (to which I meekly declared that I wanted to build golf courses: "winning the war against trees" ).

Golf courses are better to the environment than most social constructs of human civilization; the simple permeable vs. non-permeable discussion of a golf course vs a strip mall  or parking lot (etc) is undeniable. Granted, a golf course may cut down trees but the water filtration and preservation of open space greatly exceeds the CO2 potential of the 500 trees that the CC just culled.

I am a pure environmentalist at heart but I have come to terms with the fact that golf is not one of the ecological offenders (except maybe the "tropical island par 3").

[Gary Slatter]

For every old golf course removing trees I bet there are two newer courses planting trees. Not everyone reads CGAtlas.  I get annoyed when I see mature trees being cut down in cities so the overhead wires can "live".

[Jim Nugent]

Lindsay, nothing to worry about.  Al Gore is buying carbon credits to offset these kinds of problems.

[Doug Siebert]

Gary,

You'd have a different position about cutting down trees in favor of overhead wires if those wires were the route that electricity took to your home!  We had a big ice storm here in Iowa last weekend and there were some entire small towns that were without power for 3-4 days (nevermind the individual houses with lines from the pole to the house still down that won't be 100% complete until a couple more days from now)
 
There are way more trees lost each year due to clearing land for new suburban develoipments than even redanman being put in charge of a tree removal program on every golf course in the world could cause.  The sad thing is that they'll remove all those trees, then the first thing the new homeowners do after moving in is plant some saplings.  I've never understood why the vast majority of developers clear cut a swath about 200' wide along street centers for a residential development, so every house ends up with a few saplings in the yard and a well defined dividing line in the backyard between the manicured and overfertilized lawn and an impenetrable forest of trees and brush.  Then they sell them all as "wooded lots"

[RT]

Turfgrass is a more efficient exchanger of CO2 to O2 than trees.

[Mark Pearce]

Turfgrass is a more efficient exchanger of CO2 to O2 than trees.

I was wondering when someone would point out that for all the trees that come down on golf courses, grass grows where they were and photo-synthesises just the same.

[JESII]

Turfgrass is a more efficient exchanger of CO2 to O2 than trees.

I was wondering when someone would point out that for all the trees that come down on golf courses, grass grows where they were and photo-synthesises just the same.

This is the point I was...curious about...certain was a factor...unsure of the comparative measure.

I began this conversation the other day with a guy Lindsey and I know well (any coincidence LB?). My instincts told me that if a grove of 10 mature and 20 young trees are cleared out, the turfgrass replacement, as well as the improved health of the current surrounding grass will in some way offset the lost CO2 exchange from the trees. I haven't the first clue about the factual answer so it's good to hear it's worthy of conversation. RT and Mark, what sort of evidence can you provide to support your statements? What would you expect the countering arguments to be after you've made your point?

[Paul Payne]

In the end doesn't this whole argument abnout trees only hold up only a little if forest land is being cleared for new golf courses? I am sure someone out there will be able to discuss the benfits of trees over grass or visa versa but that is not the point.

When it comes to the topic of clearing trees from existing courses aren't the trees interlopers to begin with? My understanding is that it is hard enough to get clubs to cut back trees to the original look, I am not sure many are actually aggressively clear cutting beyond that point.

I guess I just don't buy that we statistically have a problem with losing trees by cleaning up golf courses. Seems there a bigger fish to fry.

[JESII]

I think the argument from the 'protect trees' camp is that every little bit matters, and that it's an overall mindset and approach to the environment that will win the day.

So long as "The Inconvenient Truth" doesn't become the drum beat of supporting evidence I can stay in the conversation...admittedly with little evidence, but plenty of questions.

[Paul Payne]

I hear ya'

I think that when people become over zealous over the small issues it detracts form their arguments over the bigger ones.

I would be much more concerned about our use of power and its impact on the environment. Even if you want to get worked up over trees every phone pole stuck in the ground is made from one entire tree.

I guess golf courses are just easy targets and are populated by us elitests making them an even more worthy target.

[JESII]

I guess golf courses are just easy targets and are populated by us elitests making them an even more worthy target.

That was actually the point this mutual friend of Lindsey and I was driving at. The outside perception of "golf" and its effect on the environment is bad enough as it is, it might not make sense to inflame passion just because you want to see across a couple hundred yards of a valley when you're playing.

My personal position would be to find out the facts about any effect on the environment from a proposed tree program and, if I'm in line go, with it...I'm not too worried about outside perception so long as I'm comfortable with what I'm doing.

[Paul Payne]

I understand the point.

I just think that anyone who gets worked up over the issue "Can't see the forest for the trees."

[Philippe Binette]

To me, Oakmont went too probably too far... They cut a lot of trees before the amateur of 2003 and I thought it was just great...

but now you look at the pictures and you wonder why they cut the rest.

[Dan Boerger]

I have no comment on the ecological impact of golf courses cutting down trees, but I strongly suspect the impact would be negligable if every course cut down every tree on their property. But that's just conjecture on my part.

What I do have a comment or opinion on is that wholesale tree removal may not be a good thing. I can think of situations where trees make the hole better. Off the top of my head, I think the second green at WFW is better with the tree where it is. I think the tree line along the right side of the 4th hole at Merion is a terrific hazard. I think the tree that guards the 7th hole (if you lose your drive right) at Aronimink is a good tree.

[mike_malone]

 Dan,

  Do you see more trees that should be kept or more that should be removed ?