News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Patrick_Mucci

Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« on: March 04, 2007, 01:07:13 PM »


The above picture shows two greens seperated by a large bunker.

Their proximity to one another is interesting, as is the use of the common bunker.

The golf course has limited acreage, the designer, Seth Raynor, managed to create tremendous efficiency in design, and not to be forgotten, in daily maintainance.

Why don't we see more of this ?

Is it the emerging legal climate that has eliminated this type of design, rather than the architect ?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2007, 01:15:36 PM »
Emerging? legal climate... are you saying it could get worse?

One of the great things about being here in México is the absolute assumption that each individual person is responsible for having a basic grasp of common sense and thus if you, let's say put scalding hot coffee between your legs while driving and burn yourself, rather than getting a multi million dollar award you would get a good belly laugh.


James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2007, 01:39:11 PM »
Patrick,

Is it a dangerous golf course?
The hole above is clearly a one-shotter.  What's the type of approach into the hole below - short or long iron?

Im personally not a fan of close proximity greens although I am in favour of maximising the land to its fullest where possible.
@EDI__ADI

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2007, 06:55:20 PM »
The green at the bottom is a short four of about 330. 220 for ideal layup, leaving a 110 approach.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2007, 08:03:14 PM »
Those palm trees above the left bunker in the photo are perfectly located to protect players on the bottom green from sliced tee shots to the upper green!  

How long is the par 3?  Is it a redan with big mounding to the right?

What course?

Powell Arms

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2007, 08:13:54 PM »
Below is a shared bunker situation with which I am familiar.  THe green on the left is approached from the east from about 130-160 yds.  The green on the right is approached from the norteast from 140-170 yds.  It does not present a safety problem, but it certainly does allow for negative swing thoughts!

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qpj7sq8qy5p8&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=4041258
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 09:41:21 PM by Powell Arms »
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2007, 08:38:00 PM »


I would argue that the safety provided by the palm trees that might deflect a low percentage of shots is overridden by  the fact that the players on the  green will feel a false sense of security and be less aware of the danger of being hit.

The player hitting the ball might also be lulled into a false sense of security and be less likely to yell fore.

I do think it is the legal climate combined with a wrongly based conventional wisdom that has caused these effeciencies to become obsolete.  Modern guys won't build them, the restoration guys have to beg to restore them and very little education occurs along the way.  

Safety and close proximity to others (see privacy thread) are the two fallbacks used by the uneducated in sabotaging restoration plans imo.

I suspect most of the modern designs, by the visionary developers that might accept this sort of setup (youngscap, keiser, bakst) have sufficient land where were these sorts of effieciencies would be for effect rather than out of neccesity.

So, they rarely get built, and they rarely get restored. :'(

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2007, 09:30:29 PM »
Pat -

I see plenty of this at the Cape Arundel Golf Club in Kennebunkport, Maine.







Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Paul Payne

Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2007, 10:11:05 PM »
I would put forward that there are probably plenty of really good courses that are..... shall we say... compact. The problem is only that they do not get the exposure that they deserve.

Two courses that I have mentioned before are Glen Erin in Janesville WI and Aiken CC in Aiken SC. Both are small local courses that are extremely well executed and have traits such as holes in close proximity or shared greens, yet neither ever seem crowded or dangerous.


My opinion is that the challenge these kinds of courses offer is essentially lost due to their lack of good press. I assume if I can find a handful of these great small courses there must be hundreds of others out there.

My question would be; why do we expect a great course to consume 400 acres or more?



Patrick_Mucci

Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2007, 02:51:17 PM »
Michael Moore,

Great pictures.

Greens in close proximity, especially ones that share bunkers would seem to reduce maintainance costs.

What are the distances for "normal" shots that approach each of those adjacent greens ?

Paul Payne,

I'll take a look at Google Earth for the two clubs you mentioned.

It would seem that this configuration of greens close to one another, that share a common bunker, was prevalent during the "Golden Age".

What seems more common is fairways that share common bunkers.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2007, 02:57:15 PM »
the first picture looks pretty safe to me...

let's face it, you can get hit by a golf ball when you're on a golf course... our lawyer driven world is absurd.

nobody complains about proximity on the old course not only green to green but green to tee...

Paul Payne

Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2007, 03:00:24 PM »
Patrick,

Take a look at Aiken CC in Aiken SC. I have mentioned it here before but it is a course I like very much. Not long, ony 6200 yards par 70, but it is a great test. It was built in 1912 which might explain the shared greens. It is very close to the Palmetto club.

The other Glen Erin in Janesville WI is adjacent to the small local airport. It is a fairly new course on a small parcel and yet is doesn't feel crowded in at all. The fairways will often meet in areas but they do not have that back and forth look of the classic midwestern small town course. They also did a wonderful job of using the natural contours to create green sites and fairways. it

Both are fun and challenging courses.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2007, 03:04:11 PM »
From what I've been told by other architects, the majority of lawsuits about golf course design involve cart use, not the proximity of golf holes to one another.  However, such suits do occasionally happen.

On past projects I've been told by lawyer friends of the client that such-and-such situation is dangerous and we can't build it that way.  Unfortunately, once they've brought it up, my culpability in court would be about ten times as high if an accident ever happened there, so we must always relent to the client's wishes on liability issues.  Oddly, I've only had a lawyer as a client once (actually twice, at Stonewall) and he allowed us to locate greens and tees much closer together than some other clients would, because of the quiet nature of the club.

The only thing I know for certain is that I pay a pretty healthy chunk of professional liability insurance each year.  It really seems like a ransom considering the business I'm in.

P.S.  This is another reason for the high cost of golf ... not the liability insurance itself, but the fear of liability issues causing most architects to spread out their holes more and more, which costs acreage and dollars.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 03:05:38 PM by Tom_Doak »

Paul Payne

Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2007, 03:06:11 PM »
Pat,

I do not know how to move pictures yet but I found Aiken CC on Google earth and I saw something I had forgotten. If you find it you will see near the clubhouse and pool a shared fairway (#1 and #18) a shared green at the end (#1 and #17) and I had forgotten that the tee for the par three #18 sits right next to the shared green. Even still I never found this the feel congested.  \

As far as Glen Erin goes, I just looked and it appears the image is prior to the course being built however you can see the parcel between the airport and the bend in the river.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 03:18:50 PM by Paul Payne »

Paul Payne

Re:Efficiency in design - Challenge in play
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2007, 03:08:50 PM »
Tom,

I am just curious, have you ever really been sued? Is the insurance for just the really big unknown catastrophe or do people go after you over petty issues often? Is the liability here the same as an architect of a building or a bridge?