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JESII

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2007, 04:36:20 PM »
Thanks Brian,

didn't need the bath image though...

how much time would you typically alot for on site work while preparing a routing?

Hope things are well.

Mike_Young

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2007, 04:40:59 PM »
JES,
I know that this.  If you have returning nines the downhill will equal the uphill.  
Mike
[/quote

You'll have to come to HVCC here in Philly as well (come with Tommy Nacc!) to see the mistep there...ninth green is maybe 100 feet below the first tee. Although you might have me on a technicality...it's also about 200 yards away.
JES,
Have played there.....understand.....but 200 yards away is not returning all the way.....
Are you in Philly???
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2007, 04:49:30 PM »
Yep, getting up here anytime? let me know and we'll grab a beer.

RE: the return less 200 yards, I knew you had me, but I figured I'd take a shot after your wise-ass response to my very sincere, heartfelt question.

See Brian Phillips response, his was a bit too detailed, with the tub referrence and all...maybe somewhere in between...but I wouldn't want you revealing any trade secrets here. Like Wayne says, I'll just get some newbie to do a routing for me and stiff him on the bill...


Tom_Doak

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2007, 05:19:46 PM »
I have learned lots of little tricks about routings from seeing so many other courses and from trying to do them myself.  They are akin to crossword puzzles ... many are "kiddie crosswords" without the letters being well interconnected, and then there are the NY Times crosswords, which seem impossible at first but after a while you get used to how they work.

Peter:  Honestly, I don't think there is a writer on the subject of golf architecture who can write much about routing a golf course.  That would be like a non-musician writing about how to write music.

Peter Pallotta

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2007, 05:29:00 PM »
Tom D:

Thank you. As this thread progressed, I was starting to get that same impression, i.e. that the architect aside, no one really knows whether the routing got the "most" out of a particular site.  That's really good to know -- it might even be one of the most important things for me to know, at least when it comes to trying to discuss gca.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 09:51:40 PM by Peter Pallotta »

George Pazin

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2007, 05:49:26 PM »
Nothing really to add, other than to thank Peter for the thread, which is one of the better routing threads I've read. Don't hesitate to ask other questions you think are novice questions!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2007, 06:57:29 PM »
"How do you tell if the Routing is Good?"

Peter:

Good question.

I'd say you can tell if a routing is good simply if the thought occurs to you.

Think about that--what could that mean?

In my opinion, most of the time a routing doesn’t even occur to golfers unless there is something wrong with it in any number of ways. Routings are so fundamental and structural (in a macro and micro way) that if the thought of a good one occurs to a golfer it probably occurs to him over time simply because he comes to realize there's nothing really wrong with it. I think I say that advisedly because there are just so many things that can go wrong with a routing, or make it problematic in large or small ways and in one way or another.

That sounds a bit negative or it sounds like I'm coming at the question from the negative side and maybe it is----maybe I am. But there are so many elements about a routing that can inherently disturb people for one reason or another, I'm sure you get a glimmer of what I mean.

But I think it sure is possible to play a course for the first time and say to yourself afterwards--"Wow what a great routing." One might have to be actually thinking of the subject first, though, to have the thought or that conclusion occur to you.

What would some of the things be that would make it occur to you?

I like what Don Mahaffey said--if you get lost in your round---if whatever it is about the golf course just keeps you constantly engaged from beginning to end without anything consciously bothering you along the way. Maybe I shouldn’t even say without anything bothering you along the way---maybe I should just say that you’re aware that your interest level has remained noticeably high throughout.

I think I had that experience when first playing Pacific Dunes because I felt constantly engaged with each hole---nothing at all rubbed me the wrong way from beginning to end but the thing that really got my attention regarding the routing is I basically never knew where I was on the course in relation to the rest of it and I never really even knew what direction I was going in unless I was along the coast. I guess I was so engaged throughout  I did not really realize either what a totally odd par sequencing the course has. I had so little idea where I was or where I was going (I couldn’t tell where I was in the overall layout of the course) I actually got Doak to draw me a routing diagram on a paper place setting and I was completely surprised what the general routing layout looked like (I still have the place setting routing Tom).

I've tried maybe 500 hours of routing and I can tell you it's pretty daunting, certainly at first and can be real maddening in all kinds of ways----all kinds of ways. There’re a number of apparent “no-nos” you are aware of like routing the first hole or so directly into the rising sun or the last few directly into the setting sun. Always in the back of your mind is the issue of balance and variety of the course as you go along---eg par sequencing or whatever. The guys who are experienced at it say one needs to take care not to get wedded to some particular hole or landform or whatever if it means it can only be done at the expense of the holes leading to it or coming just after it.

There are just so many things to think about in routing a course. I think it can be much harder to route a really topographically potential site compared to a blander site because the former sometimes doesn’t allow much routing latitude with balance, variety, sequencing etc. And then there’s the clubhouse that really can set things routing-wise in a start and stop sense.

But, in my opinion, there is nothing at all that is better for a real understanding of golf course architecture than this particular area of GCA----to try to do a routing and work out the complexities and obstacles in it. It really is like doing a massive jigsaw puzzle only you sort of get to make the pieces too---although every piece better be good in and of itself.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 07:07:04 PM by TEPaul »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2007, 07:10:02 PM »
I've been reading this thread and thinking alot about it.  While I agree with the general consensus that I think "good routing" seperates the men from the boys, I don't necessarily think that most sites have "1" routing that is best.  It really is an art form of sorts with no right or wrong, just preferrences.

That being said, perhaps a better way to understand routing is by seeing how not to route.  Does anyone have any specific examples of courses that might be well known? And can they describe specifically where it went wrong and why?

I too would be intimidated by trying to route via a topo map, but would imagine after awhile it would get a lots easier.   I was a boy scout and we did do compass/topo map challenges and that was always fun. But from where I sit, which is with 0 experience, it would seem being on site is the best way to get the full use out of the features in the land you've been given.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2007, 09:20:02 PM »
I seem to recall Mucci or Cirba saying they could do a better job on Augusta...sorry to whichever of you did not say that...to the one who did, it's time to walk-the-walk...

Peter Pallotta

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2007, 10:01:10 PM »
TE:
thanks for that post, and the really good insights.

Kalen:
a neat way of looking at the question; I'd be curious to find out if any courses deemed worthy of discussion could've gotten it "wrong".

JES:
 :D
"Lucy, you got some 'splaining to do!"
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 10:01:53 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Brian Phillips

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2007, 02:46:15 AM »
Brian,
How much would you like to wager?  I think you would be surprised at how much they collaborated on the final routing.  If you know David, ask him and he'll tell you  ;)
Mark
To quote David,

"Bill Yates did consult to the links trust on the existing courses. I did walk thru No 7 with him and he made some observations that were useful but in essence the routing was set at that point. His advice was good and I think many would be surprised by his findings."

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2007, 07:49:52 AM »
Brian and Tom Doak,
What will surprise some is that of the two final routings, Bill recommended the one that he believed would take slightly longer to play.  And as David said in his response below, the reasons Bill uses would be quite interesting to most.  

wsmorrison

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2007, 07:54:50 AM »
Mark,

So how much do you owe Brian for the bet?  ;D

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2007, 08:18:18 AM »
We only bet a few hundred  ;D  

Was anyone surprised that Bill (who is a pace of play guy) recommended the routing that took longer to play?  

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2007, 09:40:31 AM »
Was anyone surprised that Bill (who is a pace of play guy) recommended the routing that took longer to play?  

I would be more surprised if his only goal in routing was to produce the quickest route to the finish line.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2007, 10:14:42 AM »
Joe,
Good point.  Much more is involved than that.  Maybe Ran will do an interview with him at some point.  It is fascinating to listen to his logic.  As David Kidd said below, "His advice was good and I think many would be surprised by his findings."

Brian Phillips

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2007, 10:17:08 AM »
Joe,
Good point.  Much more is involved than that.  Maybe Ran will do an interview with him at some point.  It is fascinating to listen to his logic.  As David Kidd said below, "His advice was good and I think many would be surprised by his findings."

Mark,

I think that is a very good idea. It would be interesting to hear his thoughts.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2007, 06:49:56 PM »
Mark, Brian, Mike,
Sorry to jump in so late in this discussion.

The quote from David Kidd was absolutely correct.  In this case I did not influence the routing at all, I just offered my thoughts on whch of two routings (both already designed by David and presumably making the best use of the land) would provide for the smoothest flow of play.  After all, for most it is not the absolute clock time that bothers us, it's waiting on every shot that causes the anger and frustration. Therefore, I focus more on creating a routing which enables a smooth flow of play (TOC for example) and as a result will be easier to manage on a day-to-day basis for the life of the course.    
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Mark_Fine

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2007, 07:05:10 PM »
Bill,
Thanks for jumping in.  I think this site would be fascinated to hear some of the things you discussed with me at our booth at the GIS show and at dinner in Anaheim.  Maybe between Brian and I, we can get you on Ran's interview list (if you are interested)?
Mark

Bill_Yates

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2007, 07:38:46 PM »
Mark,
Absolutely! I would love to participate and will look forward to it.

Just to make it clear to the readers on the site, particularly architects, in no way does my work take any design options away from the architect, make the course easier or have the goal of getting every course design to deliver a 3:45 round.  

I am of value during the design or redesign phase of a project when selecting from two or more routing choices (if offered by the architect as choices, either one should be acceptable as a first choice), during the construction phase when it is still possible to react to the as built conditions, when I comment on the fine tuning aspects of various playing lengths, etc, and just before opening day when I work with the incoming management team and help them put in place the optimum day-to-day management strategies for ensuring a smooth pace of play that maximizes the utilization of the course and establishes a high quality and high value experience from day one, with no trial and error time needed.    
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Sean Walsh

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2007, 08:29:06 PM »

I focus more on creating a routing which enables a smooth flow of play (TOC for example) and as a result will be easier to manage on a day-to-day basis for the life of the course.    

Bill,

Forgive my frivolity but does this mean you take out a few par 3's and 5's  ;D

On the serious side what is the effect on "smooth flow of play" of reachable (or nearly reachable) par 4's?  

Also back on the topic at hand.  The one thing that has suprised me a little with TOC is the 1st.  It is a little suprising to me that the first green isn't set amongst part of them.  The only thing I could think of was

a) They didn't exist in the stable state that we see them today.

or

b) it compromised the 2nd hole (i.e the 2nd tee being probably 50-70 yards closer to the site of the second green).  

Actually just thought a little more about it and it would also have more safety implications for the Reverse 18th than the current arrangement.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 08:31:40 PM by Sean Walsh »

Kalen Braley

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2007, 10:07:36 PM »
I've been reading this thread and thinking alot about it.  While I agree with the general consensus that I think "good routing" seperates the men from the boys, I don't necessarily think that most sites have "1" routing that is best.  It really is an art form of sorts with no right or wrong, just preferrences.

That being said, perhaps a better way to understand routing is by seeing how not to route.  Does anyone have any specific examples of courses that might be well known? And can they describe specifically where it went wrong and why?

I too would be intimidated by trying to route via a topo map, but would imagine after awhile it would get a lots easier.   I was a boy scout and we did do compass/topo map challenges and that was always fun. But from where I sit, which is with 0 experience, it would seem being on site is the best way to get the full use out of the features in the land you've been given.

Not sure if people just blew over this or didn't think much of it.

But isn't there at least a couple of armchair course architects who want to take a shot at this?  I would love to myself, but I am but a grasshopper in need of much more learning before I took a stab at something like this...

Bill_Yates

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2007, 11:09:31 PM »
Sean,
No, I've never advocated taking out par 3's and par 5's.  You have, however, made a great point.  The Old Course does present an opportunity for very smooth flow simply because of the two long stretches of par 4 holes.

Regarding your question of driveable par 4's, in order to interrupt the flow of play and cause large backups on the course, two elements have to be in play: 1. players don't actually have to drive the green on these holes, they only have to think that they can, either way they wait for the green to clear. This delays play and causes a backup.  2. If the starting interval is too small (the course routing and design actually dictates what the starting interval should be), the backup will build and last all day.  With today's technology and "driveable" par 4's, you have created a monster par 3 that can only serve one group at a time, guaranteeing a reasonably long playing delay. That's precisely why they looked to extend the length of #9, 10 and 12 on TOC.
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2007, 02:03:45 AM »
I've been reading this thread and thinking alot about it.  While I agree with the general consensus that I think "good routing" seperates the men from the boys, I don't necessarily think that most sites have "1" routing that is best.  It really is an art form of sorts with no right or wrong, just preferrences.

That being said, perhaps a better way to understand routing is by seeing how not to route.  Does anyone have any specific examples of courses that might be well known? And can they describe specifically where it went wrong and why?

I too would be intimidated by trying to route via a topo map, but would imagine after awhile it would get a lots easier.   I was a boy scout and we did do compass/topo map challenges and that was always fun. But from where I sit, which is with 0 experience, it would seem being on site is the best way to get the full use out of the features in the land you've been given.

Not sure if people just blew over this or didn't think much of it.

But isn't there at least a couple of armchair course architects who want to take a shot at this?  I would love to myself, but I am but a grasshopper in need of much more learning before I took a stab at something like this...

I think you bring up two ideas really -

1) You define  and illustrate BAD routing to point to the good. I've always thought long walks (rides) to the next tee are a cheif feature on BAD or contrived courses. In the GCAs defense, perhaps the property demands such just to make the course work. Camas Meadows just NE of Portland, OR comes to mind. The other I think of is that STRANGE hole you come across in your round. A few of the Jacobsen/Hardy course I've played seem to have at least one hole that is a struggle.

2) It might be a humorous and even rewarding exercise if someone posted a topo on here that we could then route "our" course over for the treehouse to critique. On second thought, that might be a little too painful for the true GCAs to wade through and might keep them from this thread and topic!  ;D  On third thought - there are some very creative and insightful folks around here who might teach us something through a collective process...
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

TEPaul

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2007, 06:07:15 AM »
It probably would be an elucidating excercise to make a laundry list of the things (both little and big) that can make a routing bad or problematic.

It would probably be even more enlightening if some of the architects on here and others with routing experiences explain some of the laundry list of reasons why various routings have various problems. I will guarantee you all that it is not always that the architect just didn't pick something optimum. The obstacles to more ideal routings and more ideal holes are just incredibly numerous and growing every day.