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Brian Phillips

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2007, 12:27:22 PM »
Quote from: Wayne Morrison on March 04, 2007, 11:21:48 AM

It must be so difficult to route on heavily treed or impenetrable  ground.  I cannot imagine what it was like to conceive a routing at Pine Valley with the dense pine forest that existed.  
Wayne,

It is extremely difficult and that is why good topo maps are important, which are not always easy to find for dense forests.  Many a time a client has promised me mapping and turned up with 5 metre contours....about as much use as tissue paper in rain.

I always try to get hold of an aerial of the site and then ovelay the contours onto the aerial in the CAD program we use.

Peter,

Reading contour mapping is very important if you are working on a tough site.  Luckily I had nearly five years in the Royal Engineers as a Land Surveyor and then 8 years working in an engineering company doing a lot of GPS.  This has helped me tremendously to get a 'picture' of site in my head just from the mapping.

One of the reasons we do not present contour drawings to our clients is because of what you described, most of them just see squiggly lines! So we use shading on our green plans.

Brian
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 12:33:46 PM by Brian Phillips »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

BCrosby

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2007, 12:39:10 PM »
Another interesting twist to this topic.

Virtually all discussions of gca assume the routing. It's rarely up for discussion, especially by laymen. From Darwin to Joshua Crane to Ron Whitten to us wingnuts, discussions of the quality of a design almost always assume the routing.

When alternate routings are discussed, it is usually by the architect himself. Because only he will know the land well enough to know the options he didn't take.

I think it gets back to visualization. Once you've seen a routing in the ground, it's extremely hard to visualize how it might have been done otherwise. Especially for non-architects. You have to really know the terrain well.

It's the "compared to what" part of the analysis. If you don't know everything about the terrain down to your bones, you won't know how to answer the question "compared to what?"  

Bob
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 12:47:32 PM by BCrosby »
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wsmorrison

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2007, 12:39:29 PM »
Jeff,

Bob Crosby is in the process of finishing his chapter for our Flynn book.  Bob analyzes the differences between the Flynn and Ross routings.  As Bob said, the differences are remarkable and a wide open window on the different routing preferences between two classic era masters.  We are going to post the chapter on GCA upon its completion.  Craig Disher did a wonderful job of overlaying the two plans and made great use of the original drawings of Ross and Flynn as well as some old aerials including a terrific oblique from the Hagley...or was it the Library Company of Philadelphia?

Brian,

Next time we get together, after you kick my ass on the golf course, we'll have to talk about your routing theories and use of technology in your process over a few or more beers.   Are you coming back for a visit?
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Brian Phillips

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2007, 12:55:40 PM »
Wayne,

Yes if you want me back!!  I was thinking of bringing Graeme with me this time.  Do you know if Barry (I hope I got his name right) got his magazines?

I tried to send you and Tom P a couple of files last week but they bounced back. Can you send me an email just to make sure I have the correct address.

Cheers,

Brian
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jeff Doerr

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2007, 01:26:03 PM »
Thanks Wayne - looking forward to it.
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wsmorrison

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2007, 03:44:09 PM »
Of course I would look forward to you visiting again.  Yours is an open invitation and one I hope you'll take up regularly.  We should try to get Lloyd Cole down and Craig Disher up during your visit.

Barry did get the magazines and is thrilled.  I'm surprised that he didn't thank you directly.  When I see him I'll tell him you were asking for him.

My email is wsmorrison@hotmail.com  I'll send you an email just to make sure you get it right.  
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Mark_Fine

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2007, 04:09:05 PM »
Forrest's book on routings is a great reference.  If you at all interested in this subject, it is a must read (several times over I might add).  

Some of you might find this tidbit about selecting routings interesting; Forrest and I both know and work with a gentleman by the name of Bill Yates.  Bill was heavily quoted in our Hazards book and in Forrest's Routings book.  Bill is widely regarded as the world's number one authority on pace of play and operations analysis.  His resume on the subject is second to none.  In 2003, Bill was called in to work with the St. Andrews Links Trust on the design of the new #7 course, now named the Castle Course.  He analyzed two different routings using his proprietary software to simulate play on the course with each routing.  Based on this analysis, he recommended the routing that will provide the smoothest play for the life of the course.  That is the routing David McLay Kidd ended up using.  

Was it the best use of the land and terrain, who knows for sure?  But is shows that there are many variables that go into selecting "the best routing" for a golf course.  
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Brian Phillips

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2007, 04:30:09 PM »
Mark,

I can bet you a lot of money that David Kidd would not have chosen the routing because of what Bill Yates had to say about the smoothest play for the life of the course. ;)

Brian
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mark_Fine

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2007, 04:34:12 PM »
Brian,
How much would you like to wager?  I think you would be surprised at how much they collaborated on the final routing.  If you know David, ask him and he'll tell you  ;)
Mark
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 04:36:18 PM by Mark_Fine »
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Mike_Young

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2007, 05:44:37 PM »
How do you tell if a woman is good looking???
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Joel_Stewart

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2007, 06:49:09 PM »
Wayne:

I would be interested in the difference in routing at Shinnecock (McDonald routing vs. Toomey/Flynn) and if you know if Toomey or Flynn did the current routing?
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wsmorrison

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2007, 07:06:42 PM »
Joel,

Toomey didn't do any routing or design work, nor did Red Lawrence, William Gordon or Dick Wilson when employed by Flynn.  Dick Wilson was under the auspices of either Gordon or Lawrence, the construction foremen.  

Flynn was the exclusive designer for the firm.  Toomey oversaw the engineering and business end of things and was Flynn's partner in Toomey and Flynn Contracting Engineers.  The design work was contracted with William S. Flynn, Golf Course Architect.

There are only a few holes that share the same ground for golf between the Macdonald design and Flynn.  New property was acquired by Lucien Tyng and holes 10-18 are on land that the club purchased just prior to Flynn's work.  Holes 4-6 was on land that was never used in the Macdonald routing.  Today's first hole plays along the corridor of the Macdonald 1st hole but the green is 50 yards further down the line of play.  Macdonald's green site can still be seen to the left of the two right fairway bunkers.  Flynn's par 3 second hole plays to the Macdonald green site of the former par 5 twelfth hole which was approached from a slightly different direction.  Flynn's third hole plays along the entire corridor of Macdonald's thirteenth.  Flynn's tee is much better located to the left of the second green.  Flynn redid the green (I'm pretty sure) and the bunkering is different, though a couple of Macdonald's bunkers were enlarged and reshaped.  The seventh tee was moved to the left of Macdonald's tee and is being restored after years of obsolescence.  The green was raised and rebuilt by Flynn.  Macdonald's green was below the current tee level and on natural ground that sloped right to left.  Flynn's green is built up several feet above the Macdonald green in nearly the same location, bunkered completely differently and the green outline is vastly different as well.  The eighth hole plays to the site of Macdonald's seventeenth hole (a Road green played from east to west, rather than the north to south orientation of Flynn's hole.  The green was entirely remodeled.  The ninth hole plays along the original corridor of Macdonald's eighteenth hole from a different tee (all the tees on the course are original Flynn tees--except the seventh but that is being corrected).  The green was saddled into the hillside while Macdonald's green was raised above the surrounding grade.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 07:07:22 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2007, 07:47:25 PM »
another wise ass answer to the original question...
If you can't see the cart paths.

I'm with Don and Tom's comments.

It is hard to tell from a routing plan.
Interestingly as simple as the routing for The Old Course appears, I was still immersed in the game.

P.S.
Good pace of play is the result of a good routing, not the other way around Mark.  :)

Cheers
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 07:48:19 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
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Mark_Fine

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2007, 08:14:51 PM »
Mike,
Good to finally meet you out in LA.  Pace of play and a good routing can go hand in hand.  But as you well know, pace of play is dictated by much more than just the proximity of the greens and tees.  I don't know if you made it to Bill's seminar during the show, but between hearing that and having dinner with him the one evening, I have to say his ideas and observations are quite fascinating.  
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Willie_Dow

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2007, 08:35:29 PM »
As I play a little course at Vero Beach, The Moorings, Dye made something memorable!

Can you remember every hole you have just played?

Yes, at the Moorings!
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Peter Pallotta

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2007, 08:43:57 PM »
"It is hard to tell from a routing plan.
Interestingly as simple as the routing for The Old Course appears, I was still immersed in the game."

Mike,
Most every time I play a round of golf I too get immersed in the game, and as others have pointed out, that probably means the routing is pretty good; it's certainly almost always good enough for me.  On the "small-scale", I can sometimes notice a certain feature and how it was or wasn't used; I'm trying to learn how to do that better, so I can think about/discuss these types of things more fully when I want.

But on the "large-scale", which was the second part of the question, I was asking about what I was missing/not seeing in terms of how the site was used as a whole, and whether the architect got the "most" out of a site. Often in writings and discussions about great courses old and new, "great routing" gets mentioned, sometimes in terms of how well the architect used the whole site and made the best course possible out of it. I didn't know how to even begin "looking" for that on the course, and was wondering what I was missing.    

But now you, and several others in this thread who would know, have said that -- EVEN WITH a routing plan and/or topographical map -- it's hard to know if the architect has gotten the most out of a site. And although that doesn't exactly answer the question I asked, it's a very helpful answer.

Thanks (to all)

Peter  
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Adam Sherer

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2007, 10:24:42 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young on March 04, 2007, 05:44:37 PM
How do you tell if a woman is good looking???


Hah! Exactly!  




In the eyes of the beholder, or something like that.
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"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Jason Topp

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2007, 10:50:01 PM »
For Ed Getka's benefit, here's a good one:



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Tom_Doak

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2007, 02:02:10 PM »
Jason:

That is indeed a VERY good routing.  (It's Kingston Heath, for those who didn't recognize it.)

Mark:

I am very curious to know if Mr. Yates' comparison of the pace of play for the two routings resulted in a difference of more than ten minutes ... and if not, whether five or six minutes' difference is really worth considering.

Wayne:

Your CC of York example is one reason I don't normally consider working on a project if the client is looking for routings "on spec" ... on top of the fact that I'm concerned that I would potentially be giving away some of the most important design work for free, I really doubt the ability of most clients to look at a plan and judge the routing.  

I would estimate that perhaps 1/3 of my clients can read a topo map with any nuance; the majority will just judge it based on superficial things in the drawing, latching onto a particular hole which looks cool or is like something they have envisioned, or the one which uses the same clubhouse location they have in mind.

As for the length of time spent on routings, it ranges from a weekend (Sebonack) to two years (the second course at Stonewall, where we considered a bunch of different options based on buying different parcels of land).  But of course the time is affected by lots of other factors ... how busy you are, whether the constraints are being changed, etc.  I did a routing for the land I saw in Costa Rica the day after I returned, and it may be good to go, but I would certainly welcome another few months to go back and consider it some more, instead of starting construction next week.

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JESII

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2007, 02:13:36 PM »
Tom D, Mike Y, Brian P,

What have you guys learned in your time in the field to improve your routing evaluations? Something that might help you make a better routing, or more efficient, or even a quicker decision to get to the finished plan?

Thanks
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wsmorrison

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2007, 03:08:43 PM »
Tom,

Thank you for answering my questions.  I assumed, apparently incorrectly, that Flynn and Ross were paid for their work regardless if it was accepted or not and that it was not done on a speculation basis.  It wouldn't occur to me to ask an architect to do that, certainly not an established one as clearly Ross and Flynn were at the time of that commission, nor you or anyone else remotely as experienced as you today.  

I think it would be a service to the profession for a developer or club official to engage an inexperienced architect for a plan at a highly discounted fee to compete for a project with an experienced architect.  After all,  he/she just may be the next Tom Doak  ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 03:09:53 PM by Wayne Morrison »
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Mike_Young

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2007, 03:12:20 PM »
JES,
I know that this.  If you have returning nines the downhill will equal the uphill.  
Mike
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JESII

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2007, 03:21:08 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Young on March 05, 2007, 03:12:20 PM
JES,
I know that this.  If you have returning nines the downhill will equal the uphill.  
Mike

You'll have to come to HVCC here in Philly as well (come with Tommy Nacc!) to see the mistep there...ninth green is maybe 100 feet below the first tee. Although you might have me on a technicality...it's also about 200 yards away.
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Peter Pallotta

Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2007, 03:40:32 PM »
Who are the best modern-day writers on golf course architecture in terms of understanding the professional's goals (and constraints) in routing a course, and in fairly assessing the results?

In other words, who should I read?

Thanks
Peter
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 03:41:41 PM by Peter Pallotta »
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Brian Phillips

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Re:How do you tell if the Routing is Good?
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2007, 04:30:11 PM »
Quote from: JES II on March 05, 2007, 02:13:36 PM
Tom D, Mike Y, Brian P,

What have you guys learned in your time in the field to improve your routing evaluations? Something that might help you make a better routing, or more efficient, or even a quicker decision to get to the finished plan?

Thanks
To try not to rush the development in your head.  

Walk away from it when you are struggling and come back a few days later even if it means having to let the client know you might be late getting back with a routing.

Some good ideas have come to me just lying in the bath!

Don't be scared to go back to the very first routing even if you feel guilty about it in a weird sort of way.

Last of all, pay an extra night or two at the hotel and spend MORE time on site.

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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf
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