[peter_p]

Esquire,
In alphabetical order - Ballybunion-Old, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point (a perfect ten), Merion-East, Muirfield, NGLA, Pinehurst #2, Pine Valley, Royal Dornoch, Royal Melbourne - West, St. Andrews-Old, Shinnecock Hills.

Why the hate of #1, the majority of rounds my second shot is a Scott Peterson. #8 depends on the medal pin. It is certainly the most "fun" of the bunch to play.

Doak's 31 Flavor courses have each hole "ranked" by 0 to 3 exclamation points, with some question marks. St. Andrews about the same number of Os as most of the others, Pinehurst and Pine Valley excepted. And the only !!!, #17.

Its a 10.

[Marty Bonnar]

As Cary alluded to earlier,

Is the fact that you can't readily remember a sort of litmus test as to having 10 status?  I think he said CPC he remembers every blade of grass, but at TOC he had to play it a few times to burn it in.

Granted I understand this is a bit of a loaded question because no two brains are alike and the storage capacities and ability to recall that storage vastly differs.  But I can remember all the great holes I've played on great courses even years later.

Kalen, proof indeed of your theory for it was I, not Cary, who introduced the 'blades of grass' paradigmismicality.

None taken, though.

FBD.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - I can most definitely live with all of that.

But the standard here is the Doak definition.

Man a Huckaby 10 would factor in price, views, feel in terms of history, visitor treatment, likely many other things way outside the world of "architecture."  But I believe I've made very clear my feelings about evaluating "architecture."  Need we invoke Mr. Mucci again?

Interestingly though, I do think TOC would get damn close to a Huckaby 10 anyway.  The price doesn't bother me since I don't live there and consider it a once in a lifetime thing... just as the price doesn't bother me re Pebble even though I do live nearby... and in terms of treatment, well they've always been very nice to me.  Given the course is crazy fun and has tradition and history out the wazoo, I rather do fancy it.  I suppose the only thing keeping it from a 10 for me would be I don't want too many of those, and I'd think of a few others that surpass it as I see things.

TH

[Marty Bonnar]

Peter,
many thanks for the long-awaited confirmation.

You see, now it becomes even more simple. Take Muirfield for example. GREAT golf course, but, can somewhere where you are liable to trod in dog doodies REALLY be considered a 10???

(Speaking from rather distasteful experience).

FBD.

[Bill_McBride]

Kalen - now you are testing my memory, and I lose those tests.

2 has the great green I already mentioned.  I would have to research 3-4-5-6.  Do you really think if I researched a bit I couldn't find something worth seeing on each hole?  Something that will be unique to the hole, distinct from the others?

I'd bet it would be a piece of cake.  But I don't feel like researching it, not now anyway.

 

#5 is certainly different, it's a par 5 with a great set of spectacle bunkers and the biggest green in the world (shared with #13).

#2 and #4 are longer par 4s.  #3 and #6 are shortish par 4s.  

See, lots of variety!

#2 - 411 from medal tee (453 championship tee out on the Himalayas!).  Lots of humps and hollows out in front, making that long running shot a challenge.

#3 - 370 medal tee (397 championship tee), incredible huge Cartgate bunker pinching in the left side of the green.

#4 - 419 medal tee (480 championship), deep bunkers in the "safe" left landing zone - Cottage, and a large mound guarding the smallish entrance into the green.

#5 - 514 medal tee (568 championship).  The Spectacles set into the ridge 60 yards short of the green force an accurate shot into a green so huge it's hard to get that pitch close.

#6 - 374 medal (412 championship).  A dip and rise in front make a bump and run a good option.

** I freely admit all of the above was shamelessly pinched from Rich Goodale's terrific book on The Old Course, Experience the Old Course.  If it only had a bunch of info on the Reverse...  

[Marty Bonnar]

** I freely admit all of the above was shamelessly pinched from Rich Goodale's terrific book on The Old Course, Experience the Old Course.  If it only had a bunch of info on the Reverse...  

Rich who?

Come back, ForkaB. The Cuckoo's Nest needs you...

FBD.

[James Bennett]

Come back Rich - I miss your wit.

TOC #1 tee - one of the most nerve-wracking tee-shots in golf.  The fear of failure on such an easy tee-shot amongst that setting is high.

#9 - pull your drive a few yards left, and try and find your ball.  I recorded a DNF!  And the earlier description of a short par 4 where the architect hasn't tried too hard - thats it to a tee.  In my view, you don't want to miss #9, because fo what you can learn architecturally through simplicity.  Play the hole well, and get a three, hit a poor shot and a five or lost ball is in play.  And the hole has remained unchanged through time despite its apparent easiness.  That is worth seeing.

I think TOC is the best course on the least interesting land.  It doesn't have elevated views of the Ocean.  It doesn't have undulating ground with elevation change.  And for many holes, the vista is of generally flat land.  In my opinion, the other 'Doak 10's are more easily remembered in detail (a ka Martin Bonnar and Cypress Point) - I haven't seen them all but those that I have (at leasst 4 others) are all easier to remember visually than 2, 3 and 6 at TOC.  This may be due to the large number of par 4's at TOC.

Leave it at a 10.  You can argue that it is a 9, but even the 'weaker' holes like #1 and #9 need to bes een and understood.  And I will take more notice of #2, #3 and #6 later this month.

James B

[Andy Hughes]

Why no love for the 4th hole?  The mound fronting the green, and complicating approaches resulting from 'safe' tee shots, was what caused the architecture light bulb to start blinking for me.

[Marty Bonnar]

Sean,
funnily enough, I strongly remember the Irish guys on the MSc being quite underwhelmed by TOC. I was surprised until I realised that their Links are generally on duneland of a MUCH larger scale than TOC and they therefore had very different expectations of the auld lady.

Familiarity breeding indifference and all that...

FBD.

[Kalen Braley]

As Cary alluded to earlier,

Is the fact that you can't readily remember a sort of litmus test as to having 10 status?  I think he said CPC he remembers every blade of grass, but at TOC he had to play it a few times to burn it in.

Granted I understand this is a bit of a loaded question because no two brains are alike and the storage capacities and ability to recall that storage vastly differs.  But I can remember all the great holes I've played on great courses even years later.

Kalen, proof indeed of your theory for it was I, not Cary, who introduced the 'blades of grass' paradigmismicality.

None taken, though.
FBD.

Sorry about that, I got my names mixed up.    But at least I knew that I had read it somewhat correctly in the thread.  

[James Bennett]

Sean

the land is undulating, but lacks elevation change.  Dornoch has elevation change.  Similarly, Deal (Royal Cinque Ports) may be the poster child for a flat, heavily undulating course.

My point was simply one of elevation change.  Merion East, Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Royal Dornoch and Royal Melbourne West have so much more elevation change than TOC.  So, they have a 'natural advantadge' for a memorable course.  TOC has magnificent undulations and intrigue, which enable it to 'catch' these other wonders.

Does this blow you away?

James B

[Chris Kane]

I've played it seventeen times in the last six months, and walked it about a dozen times again.  I cannot imagine a golf course could be more perfect - it ticks every box.

10/10.

[James Bennett]

James

I can understand your point, but I was caught out by the "least interesting land" bit.  Man, elevation change or no, the land at TOC is anything but uninteresting.

Sean

my point was that of the Doak 10's (and 9's for that matter) the courses other than TOC have more interesting land which enables more immediate recall of visual memory of the course features.  Yes, TOC has great undulating land, but IMO, of the Doak 10's that I have seen, it is the least interesting.  I didn't say 'uninteresting', just 'least interesting' of a very, very strong field.

James B

[Marty Bonnar]

I think you two are actually agreeing in a Huckabian-Muccian sort of way. Stop it!
TOC is full of subtle, gentle, small-scale landforms which bring an utterly beguiling sense of fine judgement that I doubt you'd see in such profusion elsewhere.
To the newbie, it might appear boring or bland, but experience definitely brings enlightenment. That subtlety creates an incredible test of golfing prowess. TOC is the 'zen' in the zenith of golf. (thank you to my agent, my mom and dad and to fine australian viniculture - see you at the Vanity Fair Party).

FBD.

[Paul Payne]

Martin,

Are you saying 10?

[James Bennett]

thank you to my agent, my mom and dad and to fine australian viniculture - see you at the Vanity Fair Party.

FBD.

veni, vidi, vici, and VINI at TOC-R

(for the Latin challenged, I came, I saw, I conquered and I DRANK WINE at the Reverse Old Course.  Well, we made up the VINI bit. )

James B

ps is the reverse TOC actually COT?  

And the Reverse is actually the 'southern hemisphere' version, isn't it (clockwise corolois effect)?

[Andy Levett]

44 votes so far and nothing under an 8. For anyone who missed the first page, here's the link again: The Old Course at St Andrews. Click here to rate it.

[Eric Morrison]

I have played it once...I give it a 10. Even some of the "uninteresting holes" that have been mentioned get your full attention when you play it the first time...especially when you play your second shot on #1 from the right side of #18 fairway! Find any one of the bunkers on the course, no matter which hole you are on, and you are in for some fun. Unfortunately(?) I didn't get that chance...! 10.

[Philippe Binette]

the only hole on the Old Course I have a hard time remembering is the 6th hole..  

the green has a good false front but after that... it seems like I played it in the fairway off the tee had a fairly simple second shot and made par all 3 times I've played it.  

[Jim Nugent]

Just noticed that someone gave TOC a "5".  Would love to hear the thinking behind that score...

[Mark Pearce]

Just noticed that someone gave TOC a "5".  Would love to hear the thinking behind that score...

Which means:

Well above the avg. course, but the middle of this scale. A good course if in the vicinity, but not worth setting aside a day to visit.

Quite extraordinary.  I think whoever that was owes it to us all to explain why they feel the Old Course does not merit setting aside a day to visit and which courses in their experience do.

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