Why hasn't the Old Course style been attempted in the United States:

[cary lichtenstein]

Because there aren't that many people who would be charmed, intrigued, enthralled and enamored of fairways that intersect, bunkers that you can't escape in the direction of the hole and the lunar landscape look of the place in general.  In short, we're the minority, Bunky, and most everybody else likes trees, flowers, bushes, easy exit bunkers and island greens.

Terry:

That's probably the correct answer, but how about Herb Kohler. He buys the Hotel at the Old Course, he is one very smart dude, tee times are nearly impossible to obtain, he has 4 courses in Wisconsin and there is plenty of featuresless land that Pete Dye could have a field day with.

He could call it Dye at St. Andrews. Do you think it would fail?

Cary

[jeffwarne]

Cary,
It wouldn't fail for Kohler in Wisconsin as long as the Spa and rooms were top notch

I need the smiley that has a finger in his throat

[Kalen Braley]

Cary,
Sine you've played two attempts and they "both left you cold" --haven't you answered your own question?

certainly the dual fairways and double greens would be modern day liability concerns ,as well as the soil and climate demands of producing similar turf.

I'd like to think many of the better,well traveled architects are influenced absractly by The Old Course in their thinking every time they design any course.

Maybe is would take a Doak or C & C to validate the worthiness of this concept, design it and pull it off. If it was done at Bandon, why wouldn't it be successful?

I agree here Cary,

I think this could really work at a site like Bandon because it has the soil for it and the people behind it who would be committed to making it as authentic as possible.

And if memory serves correctly that piece of land for the oldMcDonald site is fairly flatish and could run in a corridor like TOC.

Any thoughts Tom?

[tlavin]

Because there aren't that many people who would be charmed, intrigued, enthralled and enamored of fairways that intersect, bunkers that you can't escape in the direction of the hole and the lunar landscape look of the place in general.  In short, we're the minority, Bunky, and most everybody else likes trees, flowers, bushes, easy exit bunkers and island greens.

Terry:

That's probably the correct answer, but how about Herb Kohler. He buys the Hotel at the Old Course, he is one very smart dude, tee times are nearly impossible to obtain, he has 4 courses in Wisconsin and there is plenty of featuresless land that Pete Dye could have a field day with.

He could call it Dye at St. Andrews. Do you think it would fail?

Cary

It would probably do fine as part of his resort, but I'm not sure that it would be a draw on its own. I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think so.  Quirky and charming on an old classic layout can wind up looking and feeling contrived and man-made on something new.

In terms of Pete Dye, I'm sure he's capable of great things, but building a St. Andrews-like links on "featureless" land does seem like a stretch.  One only needs to compare the amount of dirt moved at Whistling Straits and that removed at Sand Hills to know the answer.

Whistling Straits is everything that's good and bad about modern golf.  It is a big, brawny lakeside links that pays homage to the great oceanside courses of the United Kingdom, but all of those course were natural and Whistling Straits is to Sheboygan what Shadow Creek is to Las Vegas: a man-made golf course that is entirely enjoyable from tee to green but which has precious little resemblance to the land from which it was created.  Good and bad.

[cary lichtenstein]

Could it be that none of the architects are talented enough to pull something like this off?

Or is it developer driven entirely?

[Brad Tufts]

I disagree with the notion that people aren't clamoring for TOC or Fenway Park.

Maybe not exact replicas, but designers are being asked to design "classically-styled" golf courses all the time.  See BD, PD, BT, Sebonack, SH, Ballyneal, etc...

Concurrently, every new ballpark is built in the "retro" style with brick facades, old-style scoreboards, etc.  This was started with Camden Yards, and has continued to SBC Park in SF, Comerica in Detroit, Coors Field, Minute Maid Park in Houston, Miller Park in Milwaukee, Citizens Bank Ballpark, The Ballpark at Arlington, etc...Just check out plans for the Mets tribute to Ebbets Field and the "New" Yankee Stadium will look just like the original one from the outside.

All clearly emulate Fenway and Wrigley with more seats and better amenities, much like new "classically-styled" golf courses use more modern maintenance, irrigation, and turfgrass technology.

Check out the HOK sport website, the company that designs some of these retro ballparks, and in many ways, it compares favorably to that of Renaissance Golf Design in the GCA world.  HOK even does improvements to places like Wrigley, just like the restoration/renovation architects of today.

http://www.hoksve.com/sport/projects/proj_list_alpha_1.htm

[Michael Whitaker]

Cary - The better question might be why someone has not attempted the "Kingsbarns Style" in the US. Kingbarns was built on a totally flat potato farm... and is now considered worthy of hosting an Open Championship in some circles.

With all the flat land in Florida and along the SC coast I don't understand why someone hasn't tried to create a true links type course, ala Kingsbarns. Americans are willing to fly across the ocean and pay $400 for the privilege of playing Kingbarns... why not build something similar here that could be played for far less money?

[jeffwarne]

Michael-
Atlantic is the Kingsbarn of its' generation.
or the back nine at South Fork by Gil Hanse.
East Hampton GC. Tallgrass
Seems like there are lots of examples of faux links on farmland.

I'm pretty sure if you removed Kingsbarns from the ocean you'd hear quite a bit less about it.
The New course at Crail by Hanse suffers from this very phenomena

[Andy Levett]

To be fair, the Old Course style hasn't been attempted in GB&I either, in terms of double fairways, double greens, w-i-d-t-h, etc.
Truly it is a paradox wrapped inside an enigma to which the only answer is a riddle.

[cary lichtenstein]

To be fair, the Old Course style hasn't been attempted in GB&I either, in terms of double fairways, double greens, w-i-d-t-h, etc.
Truly it is a paradox wrapped inside an enigma to which the only answer is a riddle.

Andy's got it in a nutshell, everybody loves it, nobody knows why and everyone with money wouldn't try to emulate it for fear of failure. Whew, now that we got that straight, we need to go on to the next paradox

[Michael Whitaker]

I'm pretty sure if you removed Kingsbarns from the ocean you'd hear quite a bit less about it.
The New course at Crail by Hanse suffers from this very phenomena

But, it IS on the ocean! I don't necessarily agree with your premise, but couldn't you make that statement about any seaside course? Don't you think all seaside courses benefit from their surroundings?

[Mark_Fine]

Cary,
I have not read any of the posts on this thread other than your first one (someone may have already said this), but The Old Course style has been the inspiration for far more of the golf architecture in this country than you can imagine.  I guess I am surprised you don't see that?  If you are talking about a "replica course" that is one thing, but if you are talking about "style", then you need to study the evolution of golf course design a bit more.
Mark

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,
I have not read any of the posts on this thread other than your first one (someone may have already said this), but The Old Course style has been the inspiration for far more of the golf architecture in this country than you can imagine.  I guess I am surprised you don't see that?  If you are talking about a "replica course" that is one thing, but if you are talking about "style", then you need to study the evolution of golf course design a bit more.
Mark

Mark:

You may want to read thru the posts, we've already addreesed your points

Cary

[jeffwarne]

Michael,
You're right.
Absolutely it is on the ocean and it's GREAT.
I was (weakly) trying to make the point other courses had done the faux links thing on farmland.(perhaps not as well and sometimes not directly adjacent to the sea)

[Michael Whitaker]

other courses had done the faux links thing on farmland

Other than the New Course at Grande Cypress, I don't know of another course in Florida or SC that is a true faux links... and, there are certainly none on the ocean. I guess property with a view of the water is too valuable for something as trivial as golf.

[jeffwarne]

Michael.
there is Heathland at The Legends
I enjoyed that course a lot and it definitely had a linksy feel

[PThomas]

.
A gentle piece of ground in the sand hills region would work well for the concept.

hint hint/nudge nudge to some rich guy who wants to build his own course.....

[Gary Slatter]

I think the Old Course "style" is everywhere on good courses, hopefully it continues to inspire CGAs to create their own versions of classic holes, or better still, classic shot challenges.  
I enjoy the New Course at Grand Cypress but not because its a copy of the Old Course, but because its different and fun.  I only want to play the OC right where it is, in St.Andrews, surrounded by the town and its history.  It could not be duplicated successfully in Bandon IMO.

[Forrest Richardson]

Andy Staples (with John Fought) is working on a fascinating site and course in Utah.

http://www.sandhollowresort.com/golf.php

I visited a few weeks ago and am pleased to report that someone is, indeed, using St. Andrews as a model for a U.S. design.

[Kalen Braley]

Forrest,

Thanks for that post.  I'm just up the road a few hours.  Looks like they are making a full 18 and a 9 hole course. Do you know if Andy and John would accomadate a visit to the site?

[Forrest Richardson]

I am not sure if the developer allows visits. I was there for a meeting with some builders. Andy's website is:

www.thegolfresourcegroup.com

[cary lichtenstein]

I'll be in that area in Sept 2007. Any change it will be open at that time?

[Forrest Richardson]

I doubt it will open until 2008 Spring. That is my guess.

[RSLivingston_III]

Maybe the problem is that a true "Old Course" here would need to be a members course where it could be played many times to learn it. That seems to be the thing about the Old. All the R&A guys I have talked to thought it took them more than a dozen rounds to get a decent handle on how to play it with their game. I have about 6 rounds there and still don't have a good strategy.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Andy Staples (with John Fought) is working on a fascinating site and course in Utah.

http://www.sandhollowresort.com/golf.php

I visited a few weeks ago and am pleased to report that someone is, indeed, using St. Andrews as a model for a U.S. design.

How does a front nine surrounded by housing and a back nine routed through housing replicate the Old Course?  
Cheers