Why hasn't the Old Course style been attempted in the United States:

[cary lichtenstein]

The current thread about the rating of the Old Course being a Doak 10 leads me to start this thread and ask this serious question:

Since the Old Course at St. Andrews is recognized world wide as great, why haven't the developers and architects here in the US attempted to use it as an inspiration to do things in a similiar yet dissimiliar vain?

Surely there are lots of flat land that could be shapped like bacon strips, surely sod stacked bunkers could be built, ditto double greens.

Is the reluctance housing economics? what about on the private side or public side?

Wouldn't this be a wonderful idea for Bandon to try for its next course or Kohler. Sure Dye or Doak would love this challenge.

What's the treehouse say?

[Garland Bayley]

Cary,

Do you not count The New Course by Nicklaus in Florida as one such attempt?

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,

Do you not count The New Course by Nicklaus in Florida as one such attempt?

I'm not playing it until sometime in April, but from the photos, I don't think so. I assume you are talking about The Concession.

[Doug Sobieski]

Cary,

Do you not count The New Course by Nicklaus in Florida as one such attempt?

I'm not playing it until sometime in April, but from the photos, I don't think so. I assume you are talking about The Concession.

Cary:

I think Garland may be referring to The New Course at Grand Cypress which was built as an homage to the Old Course, replete with a few semi-replicas, including #18 with a bermudagrass Valley of Sin.

Personally, I always loved playing the New because it was so unique to Florida.

[Joe Hancock]

Doug,

I share your enthusiasm for The New Course at Grand Cypress, but we are a minority, at least amongst this group. I temper my enthusiasm because the super that used to be there (he's now at Avila) was a young man who worked with me in NC, so it was a great source of pride to have him doing such good work at The New. Sentimental points probably add to my thoughts...

Joe

[Shane Gurnett]

Cary, perhaps because the US notion of golf (lush green, overwatered, smothered in rough, cartpaths, $400 green fees, no walking, 5 hour rounds, has to be "fair" etc) would be totally at odds with what the old Course has to offer.

[Adam Sherer]

In terms of the legalities, there is slim chance that you could route a golf course today, like the Old Course.

With the accepted playing corridor widths of the present legal and design system, a "replica" OC would not quite have the same feel. The OC turn of #9, 10, 11, 12 etc would be a tough sell.

People have been trying to replicate the holes individually (NGLA) for years. To replicate the entire OC is like...well....trying to rerecord Miles Davis' version of "Kind of Blue"

[Bill_McBride]

History has it that the Old Course was the inspiration of Dr MacKenzie and Bob Jones when they built Augusta National.

Wide fairways, large contoured greens, little rough, very important strategic angles........

[Tom_Doak]

I agree that trying to build something like The Old Course would be pointless unless you were sure you were going to be able to get the same sort of links playing surface.  Until recently, there was practically nowhere in America where you could say that; now there are a few places where it's been proved possible.

A gentle piece of ground in the sand hills region would work well for the concept.

I don't think it's likely to happen in Bandon; I know Mr. Keiser believes that sod-wall pot bunkers will make for unhappy American golfers.

[Adam Sherer]

History has it that the Old Course was the inspiration of Dr MacKenzie and Bob Jones when they built Augusta National.

Wide fairways, large contoured greens, little rough, very important strategic angles........

Is the question, "Old Course 'Style'? Or 'Old Course influenced'? The latter is Augusta. The prior is.........

[Joe Hancock]

I don't think it's likely to happen in Bandon; I know Mr. Keiser believes that sod-wall pot bunkers will make for unhappy American golfers.

Tom,

Would the sod wall pot bunker be more difficult than the right greenside bunker on #2 Pac Dunes, or the right greenside bunker at #18 Pac Dunes? For all but the most accomplished golfer, those are quite challenging.

I didn't get in either of those bunkers, but they sure looked like a tough extraction.

Joe

[Bob_Huntley]

Cary,

Do you not count The New Course by Nicklaus in Florida as one such attempt?

I'm not playing it until sometime in April, but from the photos, I don't think so. I assume you are talking about The Concession.

Cary:

I think Garland may be referring to The New Course at Grand Cypress which was built as an homage to the Old Course, replete with a few semi-replicas, including #18 with a bermudagrass Valley of Sin.

Personally, I always loved playing the New because it was so unique to Florida.

Doug,

I thoroughly agree with you. On a trip through S.Carolina
and Florida over thirty years ago, I played the New Course by Nicklaus and thought it a damn fine effort. How anyone could not enjoy playing it, is quite beyond me.

In fact I was so surprised at how much fun I had, I wrote Nicklaus a note of congratulation. He didn't reply.

Bob

[cary lichtenstein]

I don't believe in replication, but I do believe in inspiration and I would think that if Keiser won't build it, others who own or have options on land in the Bandon area who are contemplating what to build, would do really well with a course like this on the right piece of land with the correct architect.

I would think that the sand hills area also could one as a change of pace, ditto Pinehurst.

Down here in Florida we got lots of useless land but i don't think they could get the grasses firm enough unless the plant Tifeagle thru the fairways and greens. A thought?

[cary lichtenstein]

I find it very interesting that this thread has had so few responses.

Here we have a golf course that is everyones 10, but no one is clammering for it here.

Scotland and Ireland have been the inspiration for so many architects, a wonderful learning laboratory, yet nothing has really been translated here.

Even Pete Dye who pushes the envelope hasn't, yet he has used Scotland/Ireland as an inspiration for so much.

What am I missing or is the Old Course just a one hit wonder??

[Adam_Messix]

Cary--

Your point is interesting that no one is clamoring for "another Old Course", but then again no one is clamoring for another Fenway Park.  They are so unique in the general realm and are loved by most (more so for the Old Course), but they are loved BECAUSE of their uniqueness and building another one would only dilute the pool.  The Old Course is the textbook of golf course architecture IMHO and every architect alive uses at least some of it's principals.  

As far as duplicating parts of it, the International World Tour Links in Myrtle Beach has a copy of the 1st and 18th holes as their 1st and 9th.  They include the fences, but are not Out of Bounds and the bermuda grass definitely does not replicate the feel and the bounciness of St. Andrews.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Cary,

I guess you haven't played the famous/infamous Royal Links in Las Vegas.

www.royallinksgolfclub.com

[Jerry Kluger]

Cary: the only way it would work would be as a private club with a small membership. In reality, the vast majority of golfers would find Shadow Creek far better than Sand Hills.  Look at last year and the supposedly knowledgeable raters at GD and how they rated Ballyneal.  When I was at Grand Cypress no one was interested in playing the New Course as compared to the other course.  

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,

I guess you haven't played the famous/infamous Royal Links in Las Vegas.

www.royallinksgolfclub.com

I have played it, it is way way over-priced $250 and awful is the best thing I could say about it

Cary

Cary

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary--

Your point is interesting that no one is clamoring for "another Old Course", but then again no one is clamoring for another Fenway Park.  They are so unique in the general realm and are loved by most (more so for the Old Course), but they are loved BECAUSE of their uniqueness and building another one would only dilute the pool.  The Old Course is the textbook of golf course architecture IMHO and every architect alive uses at least some of it's principals.  

As far as duplicating parts of it, the International World Tour Links in Myrtle Beach has a copy of the 1st and 18th holes as their 1st and 9th.  They include the fences, but are not Out of Bounds and the bermuda grass definitely does not replicate the feel and the bounciness of St. Andrews.  

"As far as duplicating parts of it"

I'm not advocating duplicating parts of it other than their bunker styles. You can take the Old Course's style, please Tom Doak chime in, and use that style and create and even better course if you have the talent.

Why hasn't anyone tried?

Yes, I have played Nicklaus's attempt at Grand Cypress and the one in Vegas, but they both left me cold.

[BCrosby]

I have previously cast a vote for JN's New and I cast it again. For all its faults, the New should have been the starting point for a different and better kind of gca in Florida.

Didn't happen. I think that is a shame.

Bob

[jeffwarne]

Cary,
Sine you've played two attempts and they "both left you cold" --haven't you answered your own question?

certainly the dual fairways and double greens would be modern day liability concerns ,as well as the soil and climate demands of producing similar turf.

I'd like to think many of the better,well traveled architects are influenced absractly by The Old Course in their thinking every time they design any course.

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,
Sine you've played two attempts and they "both left you cold" --haven't you answered your own question?

certainly the dual fairways and double greens would be modern day liability concerns ,as well as the soil and climate demands of producing similar turf.

I'd like to think many of the better,well traveled architects are influenced absractly by The Old Course in their thinking every time they design any course.

Jeff:

I don't think they have done it correctly. The essence of the Old Course is not neither the dual fairways or double greens, it is the random pot bunkers, the high wall bunkers, the semi blind drives, the ground game, the ability to putt 35 yeards off the green, the closely moun fairway that in essence are almost putting green height, the bacon strip ground, the firmness.

Do I stand alone on this? That one of that type is enuf?

Cary

[cary lichtenstein]

Cary,
Sine you've played two attempts and they "both left you cold" --haven't you answered your own question?

certainly the dual fairways and double greens would be modern day liability concerns ,as well as the soil and climate demands of producing similar turf.

I'd like to think many of the better,well traveled architects are influenced absractly by The Old Course in their thinking every time they design any course.

Maybe is would take a Doak or C & C to validate the worthiness of this concept, design it and pull it off. If it was done at Bandon, why wouldn't it be successful?

[Philippe Binette]

It would be hard to do,

first the site has to have perfect drainage since there's so many area that collect water on the Old Course (but they drain)...

2) the effect of the town.. that is so important in the ambiance of the course

3) to best way to do it is hiring an absolut idiot, make him play around with a dozer for a couple of weeks, thrown dart on a map to place the holes

if you start thinking about the way the players will play the holes, than you totally miss the point because nobody's mind offer so much variety

[tlavin]

Because there aren't that many people who would be charmed, intrigued, enthralled and enamored of fairways that intersect, bunkers that you can't escape in the direction of the hole and the lunar landscape look of the place in general.  In short, we're the minority, Bunky, and most everybody else likes trees, flowers, bushes, easy exit bunkers and island greens.