[Tom Huckaby]

Is it still not a Doak 10?

Of course it is...the back nine has arguably the greatest par 3, par 4 and par 5 in the world.  And that's before you mention one of the greatest drivable par 4s.  And we still haven't even gotten to the Principal's Nose.....

Well you know this, and I know this, I'm just trying to convert the disbelievers.

 

[Marty Bonnar]

I possess not the Inconsequential Guide.

Could somebody please post the '10' list?

Comparative analysis will undoubtedly help strengthen my position...

FBD.

[Brad Tufts]

9:  Outstanding course. One of the best in the world with no weaknesses. Should see in your lifetime.

TOC....True, True, and True

10: Nearly perfect. If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.

TOC....True, perhaps not true, True

9 wins 3-2, or at least 3-2.5.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

The old course can't be measured by a standard grading system - even as nifty as Tom's.

It gets all the bonus points it needs to be at the top.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brad:

Well... how can you say something is "One of the best in the world with no weaknesses" and then turn around and say it's "maybe true" that "if you skipped one hole you would miss something worth seeing"?  It seems to me the first statement is stronger than the second...

I concur with Mike Nuzzo, btw, which is really the point of me being a word Nazi today.

 

[Brad Tufts]

Tom,

I admit that the semantics discussion is mostly useless.  Hence the " "

On my personal list of golf courses played, I actually have a 10 listed next to the Old Course, the only other one being Merion.  I think I gave it that personally because of the history, aura, and the "can't be rated on a normal scale" thing.  I was trying to look at the course without emotion, and this is where I get 9 (my 9s personally are only Ballybunion and R. Dornoch).  However, it is possible a course's ability to conjure an emotional response is something to push it from 9 to 10.

[Tom Huckaby]

Brad:  I get that, and I agree with you.

I just don't particularly like the Doak definitions, at least not when it gets to 9 and 10.  Of course I have no better way of differentiating such things, but once again just put me down with Mike Nuzzo on this.

Sorry, Mike.

 

[John Chilver-Stainer]

The first hole at the Old Course is a test and a half.

As a normal punter teeing off after a only a few air swings it is a nerve jangling event. Not only are you standing on hallowed ground but there’s usually a crowd of waiting golfers hanging around to see if you can handle the pressure - not to mention some pretty distinguished ghosts.

The relief at a getting a clean shot on to the fairway is huge, until you inspect your second shot - my last one was the tightest of lies on the side slope of a sharp undulation (how do they cut it so short?) requiring the correct distance to clear the Swilken burn and stay on the green. I managed to put my ball in the burn. Resisting the urge to take off my shoes and wade in I finally found the green back left, which has quite a strong slope requiring a sensitive putt.

You must have skipped your porridge and were still half a sleep if you yawned through the first.

The 9th green looks pretty benign aound the green - however my playing partner who went too far right and landed in one of the tiny pot bunkers wasn’t impressed when I reminded him he should feel honoured to be able to visit the “End Hole” bunker.

Rating 10.2

[Kalen Braley]

Brad:

Well... how can you say something is "One of the best in the world with no weaknesses" and then turn around and say it's "maybe true" that "if you skipped one hole you would miss something worth seeing"?  It seems to me the first statement is stronger than the second...

I concur with Mike Nuzzo, btw, which is really the point of me being a word Nazi today.

 

Tom,

I understand where you are going with this, but to me there is a big difference between saying a hole has no weaknesses and a hole is a "must see".

I interpret this akin to sizing up ones golf game.  Lets compare Retief Goosen and Tiger Woods just for arguements sake. Retief is a great player in my mind with no weaknesses, he does everything well, tee to green.  But when compared to Tiger he doesn't have the charisma, the flair for the dramatic, the always coming thru in the clutch, or the big "Wow" effect when you see him play. To this day I can only think of one Retief moment and that is when he putted completely out of his mind at Shinny at the U.S. Open.  As for Tiger, I can easily make a top ten.

So I agree with Toms choice of words for both the 9 and 10 categorizations, there is a difference there.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

The first hole at the Old Course is a test and a half.

As a normal punter teeing off after a only a few air swings it is a nerve jangling event. Not only are you standing on hallowed ground but there’s usually a crowd of waiting golfers hanging around to see if you can handle the pressure - not to mention some pretty distinguished ghosts.

The relief at a getting a clean shot on to the fairway is huge, until you inspect your second shot - my last one was the tightest of lies on the side slope of a sharp undulation (how do they cut it so short?) requiring the correct distance to clear the Swilken burn and stay on the green. I managed to put my ball in the burn. Resisting the urge to take off my shoes and wade in I finally found the green back left, which has quite a strong slope requiring a sensitive putt.

You must have skipped your porridge and were still half a sleep if you yawned through the first.

The 9th green looks pretty benign aound the green - however my playing partner who went too far right and landed in one of the tiny pot bunkers wasn’t impressed when I reminded him he should feel honoured to be able to visit the “End Hole” bunker.

Rating 10.2

[Paul Payne]

I would like to know from someone who has played the course whether or not there is any kind of disorienting feeling on the second shot on the first hole. I can imagine it would be a bit strange to be hitting from seemingly the middle of nowhere with all the space in the world to a piont (the green) which is actually somewhere. Maybe my imagination is more vivid than reality.

Also, to those who are pecking at the "if you skipped a hole, would you truly miss something" the answer is an obvious yes. You would of course have missed playing a full round at St. Andrews. Or, going back to the original assumption that you must take into consideration a course with alll of it's attributes, how many of you would make the trek to TOC get your tee time squared away and then proceed to skip the opening hole? or any for that matter? Isn't this a moot point?

[Tom Huckaby]

Great points, Paul.

And re #1, well... it would be kind of disorienting having a somewhat precise second shot after blasting away into seeming vast spaces on the drive, only that drive isn't nearly so blast away as it would otherwise seem.  The OB on the right is real, believe me.  The feeling of being most definitely watched is very real also, as is the palpable "here I am on one of the most famous first tees on earth" feel.  It has to be one of the hardest easy shots in golf.  I always mention it when discussion turns to butt-tightening tee shots, as it does from time to time here.

What's also disorienting about the approach to 1, by the way, is the need to make a carry when the whole world around you is screaming out for punchy keep it along the ground links golf.  I found that approach to be very difficult for just this reason.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I would like to know from someone who has played the course whether or not there is any kind of disorienting feeling on the second shot on the first hole. I can imagine it would be a bit strange to be hitting from seemingly the middle of nowhere with all the space in the world to a piont (the green) which is actually somewhere. Maybe my imagination is more vivid than reality.

Also, to those who are pecking at the "if you skipped a hole, would you truly miss something" the answer is an obvious yes. You would of course have missed playing a full round at St. Andrews. Or, going back to the original assumption that you must take into consideration a course with alll of it's attributes, how many of you would make the trek to TOC get your tee time squared away and then proceed to skip the opening hole? or any for that matter? Isn't this a moot point?

I understand what you are trying to say here, but your logic doesn't hold up.  The same could be said for any other course that is a 9 on the scale.  All of these courses likely have amazingly spectacular holes on them, but you must tee off on the 1st hole to get to those as well.

So its not a moot point.  The statement is all inclusive of every hole on the course, not just picking and choosing the ones that stand out the most.

I'm not advocating that TOC is not a 10, but just wonder if every hole on the course really is a "must see".

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I don’t get the feeling of being alone in a sea of green.

The Swilken burn makes a turn down the right side of the fairway which narrows the approach area and draws the eye towards the green, which  has high ground behind it and rises on the left side so it is visible - however the frontal water of the Swilken burn is difficult to identify.

What is disorientating are the jangling nerves at the thrill of being on the Old Course.

[Tom Huckaby]

But Kalen, the definition doesn't require that every hole be a must see; it says that if you skipped it you would miss something.  And I can confidently say that TOC definitely meets that standard. Every hole has some feature that if you skipped it you would miss out on.

In a certain way this equals "must see" - but in what most would equate those words to (incredibly great, awesome, perfect in every way) it's obviously a lesser standard.

But I do see how most would read the 10 standard as a higher one than the 9 standard.  I just happened to think of it in the reverse way... which makes me not like the definitions.

 

[Kalen Braley]

I can't speak to Jangled Nerves that one would get at TOC. But I get jangled nerves at every really nice course that I'm playing for the first time. And I suspect that I'm not alone on this one, unless you play really nice courses so often that its 2nd hat to you.

[Tom Huckaby]

I can't speak to Jangled Nerves that one would get at TOC. But I get jangled nerves at every really nice course that I'm playing for the first time. And I suspect that I'm not alone on this one, unless you play really nice courses so often that its 2nd hat to you.

I too get some knee-shaking on the first tee of nice courses, or in matches, or in other important times.  That's normal.

But TOC takes this to a VERY higher level.  That's the point on this issue.  The only place I've felt a similar feeling is 16th tee at Cypress Point.  Note I haven't played Merion, who's first tee is often used as anothe prime example for this.

[Kalen Braley]

But Kalen, the definition doesn't require that every hole be a must see; it says that if you skipped it you would miss something.  And I can confidently say that TOC definitely meets that standard. Every hole has some feature that if you skipped it you would miss out on.

Fair enough Tom, I guess I slipped in the "must see" bit.  But even still with that same logic, can you honestly tell me, and be honest here that you wouldn't feel the exact same way about CPC, Pine Valley, Pacific Dunes, NGLA, etc? (By the way, i'm not sure if any of those are a 10 on Doaks scale).

[Doug Ralston]

Let us start with 10 and then reduce for 'architectural' weaknesses.

1. I can never ever get there. -1
2. If I could get there, I would never be allowed on. -1
3. If allowed on, I would suffer abuse and laughter. -1
4. My score from ANY tee would earn me the laughs. -1
5. Brits wouldn't allow me on a short enough tee anyway. -1
6. I could never get out of many of those bunkers in any direction. -1
7. I am gonna hit that building! -1
8. Wait till you see how I putt. -1
9. It all started right here! +8
10. 10

Doug

[Paul Payne]

Kalen,

I realize we are really parsing through the facts to make our positions here. I only wish I had played there before so I could speak from more experience about the holes themselves.

I think however, the "if you skipped a hole" clause is really meant to sift out any course which are almost great exept for one or two clunkers. I am not sure it is fair to apply the rule as you are where you attempt to hold every hole individually up against the world of GCA.

I would fear that if you applied that rule in its most literal sense you would end up with some form of tribute course as a true 10. I think at some level you have to concede that even the greatest courses have routings and terrain and turf and a long list of other attributes which need to be considered including their pedegree.

Maybe I'm brainwashed or naive but I would find it difficult to imagine TOC not topping out almost any list.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

I canna accept that.  If ya read the definition, what ya say duzzn't matter.  If ya want to make a diffrint defintion for 10 than that's just fine; but if ya are forced to go with Doak's, then what ya say doesn't disqualify it.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - understood.  I just still don't think what you've mentioned so far disqualifies it from a Doak 10 by a strict reading of that definition.  If you want to loosen it and make your own interpretations, than cool.  But if you read those words, well....

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Sean:

I canna accept that.  If ya read the definition, what ya say duzzn't matter.  If ya want to make a diffrint defintion for 10 than that's just fine; but if ya are forced to go with Doak's, then what ya say doesn't disqualify it.

 

Well tommy lad,

I think the general point there is, would you miss anything vastly different on 4 or 5 if you had just played 2 and 3?

Now I'm not taking sides here cause I haven't played it, other than in xbox 360, but are they repetitive and could you miss them and still have gotten a flavor for them from the previous two holes?

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - now you are testing my memory, and I lose those tests.

2 has the great green I already mentioned.  I would have to research 3-4-5-6.  Do you really think if I researched a bit I couldn't find something worth seeing on each hole?  Something that will be unique to the hole, distinct from the others?

I'd bet it would be a piece of cake.  But I don't feel like researching it, not now anyway.

 

[Kalen Braley]

As Cary alluded to earlier,

Is the fact that you can't readily remember a sort of litmus test as to having 10 status?  I think he said CPC he remembers every blade of grass, but at TOC he had to play it a few times to burn it in.

Granted I understand this is a bit of a loaded question because no two brains are alike and the storage capacities and ability to recall that storage vastly differs.  But I can remember all the great holes I've played on great courses even years later.

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