Rate The Old Course

[Andy Levett]

From time to time there have been attempts to compile unofficial GCA ratings. Well, (yawn?) here's another one.

Each week I will set up a poll for a different course. Anyone who wants to can rate it on the Doak scale and, if so inclined, discuss it on the thread.

At the end of the week the poll will be archived and the average mark calculated. This way courses that relatively few have seen will still get a fair crack. Over time we'll find out what we really like.

To start, where else but The Old Course at St Andrews. Click here to cast your vote.

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy - cool idea, should be fun.  But maybe some people have the Doak scale memorized - I sure don't.  So since I had to look it up, well here it is for other memory-challenged participants like me:


0: so contrived and unnatural, cannot recommend under any circumstances.

1: Very basic course; clear architectural malpractice and/or
poor maintenance. Avoid even if desperate for a game.

2: mediocre course with little architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. (Play it in a scramble and drink a lot of beer).

3: about the level of the avg. course in the world.

4: modestly interesting; with at least a couple of distinctive holes or some scenic interest. Also reserved for some very good courses which are much too short or narrow to  provide sufficient chalenge for low-handicappers.

5: Well above the avg. course, but the middle of this scale. A good course if in the vicinity, but not worth setting aside a day to visit.

6:  A very good course, definitely worth a game, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn't disappoint you.

7:  An excellent course, worth checking out if within 50-100 miles. You can expect sound design; interesting hiles; good conditions and a pretty setting; if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8:  One of the very best in the region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but will make up for them with something really special.

9:  Outstanding course. One of the best in the world with no weaknesses. Should see in your lifetime.

10: Nearly perfect. If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.


There are very few courses one must see in his life or he will have lived an incomplete golf life.  This is one of them.  I know what my vote is going to be.

[Paul Payne]

Am I wrong or didn't I read once somewhere that TOC was actually a part of the definition of a 10?

[Bill_McBride]

If the gorse is in bloom it's an 11.  

[Marty Bonnar]

My TOC opinion generally slides up and down rather quicker than a Hoor's Drawers, but at the moment I am stuck on 9.

Holes #1, 9 and maybe 8 are only average and thusly TOC is downscored.

Of course, CPC has the worst opening drive in World Golf, but it is still an 11...

FBD.

[Tom Huckaby]

Holes #1, 9 and maybe 8 are only average and thusly TOC is downscored.

Of course, CPC has the worst opening drive in World Golf
FBD.

Interesting... you and I are typically pretty simpatico, but I disagree with each of these statements.

I find a lot to love on each of 1, 8, 9 TOC.  And if 1 CPC is the worst opening drive in world golf, then it's a damn fine golf world.  Hedges below the level of the tee surely don't bother me... and the thrill of being there, so close to the clubhouse, bashing it over a round I've travelled so many times... well that can never be bad.

TH

[Brad Tufts]

I think it's a 9...although by the Doak definition, 8 is plausible.  I only say 9 because I'm of the belief that there can only be a couple 10s in one golf life, and for the reasons FDB, Esq. mentioned above.

As my dad said when walking one of the back-nine fairways during our TOC round in 1999, "I never really considered when and where my best golf day ever was, and here I am standing in it."  

[Tom Huckaby]

Brad:

I just refer to the definition:

10: Nearly perfect. If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.

I too believe there can and should be only very, very few 10s.  But I find something worth seeing on every hole without a doubt, and I also believe if there's one course a golfer must see on this planet, this is it.  Thus for me it meets the definition perhaps more clearly than any other course.  I too have read somewhere that it was the inspiration FOR this definition, though I too can't recall where.

TH

[cary lichtenstein]

I played the Old Course twice, many years ago. Loved every minute of it, but here what I took away:

If I didn't know it was the home of golf, if I didn't know all its history and I went on a golfing trip to Scotland and Ireland for a month, and they put me on each course blindfolded, what would I think of the Old Course?

For starters, if I didn't have a wonderful caddy and my "A" game the first time I played it, I would have been lost.

Second, #1 and #17 would clearly be stupid holes that any architect would get critized about. I like 18 as a tournment finisher, but seems to be a let up hole that properly belongs about 12 or 13 before turning for home.

I don't really have any desire to return and play the Old Course before playing the North and East of Ireland Courses and Kingsbarns.

On the other hand, considering that this course was built 500 years ago, and it is so challenging, it is pure genius.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well Cary, this is the age-old "what if" argument.  That is, if Cypress Point #16 played over a toxic waste-filled sewer, it wouldn't be all that great either... at least to everyone except Pat Mucci, for whom it would have little change.  

The fact is CPC16 does play over the ocean, and TOC is the home of golf and does have all of that history.

One can either be blind to these things, or not.  I choose to believe most golfers feel them and find them important.

Thus CPC16 remains the greatest par three I've ever played, and TOC is a 10 by the Doak definition.

But to each his own.....

 

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

My comments are just what I took away and thought the treehouse would enjoy hearing my slant on it. I do not profess to be Matt Ward and say I am the "moola" of "moolas"

[Brad Tufts]

Yeah, I want to call The Old Course a 10, and I loved every minute I was there, but:

1.  Holes 8 and 9 at least are pretty benign and harmless.

2.  If you draw the ball, you will be ok, every hole (almost) penalizes the same miss.

3.  At least from the regular tees, the first-time player can put up a great score.  I left after two plays feeling that if I played there all the time I could post some really low scores.  As long as you avoid the bunkers, it's the easiest of the three main courses in town.

I loved it, and while the ambiance may be "nearly perfect," the course is "merely" a 9.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Brad:

Ever found one of the bunkers or the gorse left on 9, or had a long putt on 8?  Ever played either into the wind?  If so I'd doubt you'd call either benign or harmless.  But those do have no obvious greatness.  Still, it comes down to the definition.  Is there a more "must see" course in the world?

Cary:

Gotcha again - no hassles man.  It does make a certain sense.

TH

[Paul Payne]

I have never had the opportunity to play TOC yet, but this is an interesting debate. Huck brings up a good point in that you cannot overlook the attributes a course owns or ignore some of them intentionally to create a hypothetical arguement. Any course is what it is and needs to be judged so.

That being said, I am curious about one aspect of judging a course which comes up from time to time, and that is the "must play" phrase. It seems to be used when judging the highest score a course can have. It seems to me that "must play" is a far more subjective critique and takes into account all kinds of things that may or may not have to do with how the course plays.

Two of the courses that I have vowed to play are TOC and Dornoch. From what I know of both, there are probably dozens of issues one could pick apart in regard to the overall quality of the courses. In spite of that these and a few others hold the very history of the game we love. I am not sure I could be so flippant as to ignore that and rate these courses in the same way I would judge the latest resort course or desert courses.

Just my opinion.

 

[Philippe Binette]

for a tourist off the bus... the Old Course is a 7 at best since he can't understand it...

I walk it 7-8 times before playing it and I believe it's a 10

if you miss one hole there, you did miss something... 9th is a great learning hole... ek most designer can't built a driveable par 4 better than this one since they're trying too much

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul - that's a very good argument and very worthwhile - "must play" will mean different things to different people for sure.

But it's in the definition... so it if exists, and the other criteria are met, then isn't the course a 10?

So my take here is that TOC is a Doak 10... but if you ask me if it's the greatest course on the planet or in the top whatever, it may or may not make it.

TH

[Marty Bonnar]

Of course, CPC has the worst opening drive in World Golf
FBD.

Interesting... you and I are typically pretty simpatico, but I disagree with each of these statements.

I find a lot to love on each of 1, 8, 9 TOC.  And if 1 CPC is the worst opening drive in world golf, then it's a damn fine golf world.  Hedges below the level of the tee surely don't bother me... and the thrill of being there, so close to the clubhouse, bashing it over a round I've travelled so many times... well that can never be bad.

TH

Dearest Cuz T,
that there is editing worthy of a politician! Cut out my 'still 11' quote indeed! You've been learning lessons, methinks....

e.g., I could honestly 'skip' TOC #1. According to the Doakian Rules, I have to 'miss something worth seeing'.
I see little worth in a drive to a fairway as wide and flat as a Disney Car Park - YAWN!, followed by a 'shot over a Burn' - GASP!, to a green that is pretty FLAT(ISH). - HO-HUM!

Of course, in four short weeks time, I shall be like a small child come xmas morn on that first tee - GCA buddies and all!

FBD.

[Kalen Braley]

While I've never played TOC, I have looked at lots of photos and watched it on the tube.  (And my TW xbox game too)  

But this is the one part of the criteria that I just don't know if it meets or not.

"If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing"

Is this really so??  Sure the course is a can't miss/must see but is this really true about every hole?

[Tom Huckaby]

Martin:

That editing was intentional, because I just wanted to discuss that opening tee shot, not the course as a whole.  And I still think said tee shot is not at all bad.

Now as for #1 TOC, well... I can't say I find nothing to miss about a hole with OB right, a burn to cross where the best play is at times to bounce it over, and which also features a tee in front of the most famous plate-glass window in golf.  But to each his own.  

And you are gonna be one happy boy in four weeks time!

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

While I've never played TOC, I have looked at lots of photos and watched it on the tube.  (And my TW xbox game too)  

But this is the one part of the criteria that I just don't know if it meets or not.

"If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing"

Is this really so??  Sure the course is a can't miss/must see but is this really true about every hole?

I think it is.  But others obviously disagree.  1, 8, 9 have each already been cited.  But I've listed herein already things to see and experience on each of those holes....

TH

[Andy Hughes]

The Old Course was the inspiration for most of the great architects, and the home of strategic architecture. You need to see all 18 holes for that reason, quite apart from the quality of this or that individual hole.

Also, Bob Crosby is all wet---the majority of the bunkers were not created by man  

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - I understand that and for the most part agree.  But read the definition.  Is it still not a Doak 10?

[Marty Bonnar]

What Arb's said...

Tok (sic) me about three plays to be able to remember and accurately recall the finer details of 2-6.

ONE PLAY of CPC and I can still - over a year later - practically recall EVERY blade of grass - never mind greenshaping and bunker positions.

FBD.

[Andy Hughes]

Is it still not a Doak 10?

Of course it is...the back nine has arguably the greatest par 3, par 4 and par 5 in the world.  And that's before you mention one of the greatest drivable par 4s.  And we still haven't even gotten to the Principal's Nose.....

[Tom Huckaby]

Hey, I get this too.  But that's not what the definition is asking for.  Are there not things worth seeing on each hole?  Start with 2 - hell that has to have one of the world's weirder more fascinating greens, one that dominates play all the way back to the tee.  3-4-5-6 each have something along the same lines.  I am not saying any are all-world great golf holes - some might be but that's a different discussion, and a rather higher standard than what's required for the definition.'

Maybe I am being a word nazi, but man if TOC doesn't meet the definition put forth for a Doak 10 I do not know what course will.

TH