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Jeremy_Glenn.

Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« on: February 28, 2007, 12:21:09 PM »
I was reading Forrest Richardson and Mark Fine's book "Bunkers, Pits and Other Hazards", which got me thinking into bunker edging.  

A feature I love are bunkers with high lips.  They can big cut lips or even grassed-ver lips.  But any kind of strong lip makes the bunker really "pop".

To the architects out there, which construction methods and machinery do you use to achieve this look?  

Much appreciated
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jmorrison

Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2007, 03:11:14 PM »
Hey Jeremy!

I'm no architect, but a project manager for a golf construction
company. I guess you could call me a wannabe architect :-[!
Usually to create a lip in a bunker, the method which is used would be bunker boards or sausage bags. The type of equipment used to install these methods are blood, sweat and tears. Sometimes they can be quite a pain to install.
Once the grow in is complete the construction company or superintendent will remove the boards, again by hand and unfortunately likely have to maintain by hand to keep the desired effect.
Hope this was a little help!
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2007, 03:59:48 PM »
Jeremy,

This type of info.'s top secret, man  ;)
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jeffmingay.com

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 06:34:55 PM »
The Ritz in Jupiter had some great looking bunker lips held up by steel staples, but there was nothing to support the weight of a player who ventured on them, so after a few fell into the traps, last summer they redid them.
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Don_Mahaffey

Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2007, 08:25:46 PM »
Jeremy,
Not giving you a hard time...but an honest question...what makes you think an architect would know how to build a bunker lip...or is it like the golf pro who takes the credit when the course is in good shape?
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2007, 10:47:22 PM »
Jeremy,
do you have some pictures of what you are looking for?

Do you mean these - which are not mine...


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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2007, 11:25:08 PM »
Just dig out, or chunk out, the bunker edge to the desired shape while incorporating a vertical or even backward facing slope....add sand and wah lah.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

jmorrison

Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2007, 12:39:04 AM »
If there were soil like that in Western Canada ;D
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Jeremy_Glenn.

Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2007, 08:55:47 AM »
jmorrison,
That's actually the method we currently use: either masonite wood boards or topsoil bags.  The trouble is, they never really seem to result in a high enough / strong enough / bold enough lip once the sand is in place.


Mike Nuzzo,
Your pics are, I believe, what I'm looking for.  Think of the bunkers at Riviera, since they're fresh in all our memories:  big lip, sometimes a foot deep, with the grass growing over the edge in areas.  It really adds definition to the bunker.  How do you create the look in your picture?  How do you ensure that the lip doesn't collapse?  Any help would be great!


Don Mahafey,
You're quite right.  I should've perhaps used another more inclusive word.

Jeff Mingay,
Fine.  I'll be sure to keep MY secrets close at hand at the next Toronto GCA gathering...  ;)
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jmorrison

Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2007, 10:26:37 AM »
Jeremy

Have you tried a soild bonding agent? I have used one before and the name of the product was called MARLOCK! Hope this might help.
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John Gosselin

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2007, 11:11:10 AM »
Jeremy, here is one technique we used to create what you described.

         http://turf.lib.msu.edu/2000s/2000/000530.pdf
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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2007, 11:43:33 AM »
 The bunkers done by John Gosselin in this fashion far exceed the more expensive and manufactured look of the bunkers done by the outside professional firm.
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AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2007, 11:47:11 AM »
John,

Thanks for posting the article, I misplaced my copy.

Mike,

I am in complete agreement with you there.  Imagine that  ;)
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mike_malone

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2007, 11:50:54 AM »
Blind squirrel theory
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AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2007, 03:07:59 PM »
Not at all, it is evidently systematic.  A blind squirrel would have a much better average  8)
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2007, 05:04:40 PM »
John....nice article.

I invented a similar method out of necessity as a greens keeper at Pebble some 35 years ago. It was the only way I could rebuild the fallen faces that were a result of sand splash accretion.
I don't know what they do there now.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2007, 08:12:09 PM »
Quote from: Don_Mahaffey on February 28, 2007, 08:25:46 PM
Jeremy,
Not giving you a hard time...but an honest question...what makes you think an architect would know how to build a bunker lip...or is it like the golf pro who takes the credit when the course is in good shape?


Cmon...we all know archies get out there and bust their butts to build everything they draw...or havd wave.  

Thats why they get the credit for building it.

Seems I tried to make this point earlier but was shot down for making the thread....boring
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2007, 08:16:40 PM »
Quote from: Tim Copeland on March 01, 2007, 08:12:09 PM
Quote from: Don_Mahaffey on February 28, 2007, 08:25:46 PM
Jeremy,
Not giving you a hard time...but an honest question...what makes you think an architect would know how to build a bunker lip...or is it like the golf pro who takes the credit when the course is in good shape?


Cmon...we all know archies get out there and bust their butts to build everything they draw...or havd wave.  

Thats why they get the credit for building it.

Seems I tried to make this point earlier but was shot down for making the thread....boring

Tim,

Possibly you were shot down for using too broad of a brush in painting your assesment of the industry. That really is boring if you think things only happen with one methodology.

Joe
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Tim Copeland

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2007, 08:21:23 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on March 01, 2007, 08:16:40 PM
Quote from: Tim Copeland on March 01, 2007, 08:12:09 PM
Quote from: Don_Mahaffey on February 28, 2007, 08:25:46 PM
Jeremy,
Not giving you a hard time...but an honest question...what makes you think an architect would know how to build a bunker lip...or is it like the golf pro who takes the credit when the course is in good shape?


Cmon...we all know archies get out there and bust their butts to build everything they draw...or havd wave.  

Thats why they get the credit for building it.

Seems I tried to make this point earlier but was shot down for making the thread....boring

Tim,

Possibly you were shot down for using too broad of a brush in painting your assesment of the industry. That really is boring if you think things only happen with one methodology.

Joe


You are correct sir.  I know when I am wrong.

I look forward to the new course opening announcements and the mention of the construction company that built them...along witht the renovation/restoration news clippings.

Boring...Boring...Boring
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2007, 08:29:57 PM »
Tim,

I'm just saying that not all architects operate the way that you imply. I am not trying to take away any credit for your work.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2007, 08:37:15 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on March 01, 2007, 08:29:57 PM
Tim,

I'm just saying that not all architects operate the way that you imply. I am not trying to take away any credit for your work.

Joe

Sir,

I was merely commenting to jeremy's post.

I believe most do not know how to build em....they can tell you what they want...but not do the hands on work....and they should not have to do that............the construction company is there to handle that part of the process.

BTW....who was the construction company for your course??  I cant get to the website to read all about em.....or at least see their name.

While you are at it......list the construction companies that built the top 10 courses from last year....any 10....Im not picky.  

I will wait over here while the list is compiled.....should be easy....it is right there on the website after the part where the architect gets credit for his work.

THAT is my point my good man.  Just a name.  I have yet to see it and I have been in the business 16 yrs.
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Jim Thompson

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2007, 08:43:02 PM »
Tim,

The funny thing is that we all have a short list of people we'd call if wanted to build a few bunkers and none of them ever get any credit.  Even if one rattled off a number of construction companies, it wouldn't carry the weight of the shapers and bunker specialist out there.  The real fact, which I think you're on to, is that very few of the people that do the real work get the credit.  That's just part of the business.  By the way, Joe would be on my short list.

Cheers!

JT
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Jim Thompson

Adam Sherer

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2007, 08:50:39 PM »
There is more than one way to create that look.  You referenced the Riviera bunkers; you have to remember that the kikuya grass at the Riv makes the edges look "thicker" than bluegrass or bermuda bunker lips.  

We had one of the bunker lips give out during construction of the second green at Riviera (we were trying to make the lip look too "thick").  

It takes a bunch of laborers out there compacting the lips by hand to ensure that the lip doesn't collapse.

Normally te edges are cut to a specified depth (inch) but if you want to cut an edge that is a foot deep then just make sure that the super will able to maintian it.

By the way, Erik McDonald taught me a great way to secure bunker edges (during grow in) and it didn't involve sand bags or masonite boards; much quicker and much more effective.

Tim, et. al.:
I have seen one architect actually contributing physical labor, and its no surprise that he gets great results from the people with whom he works.

It all depends on the architect and the contractor, and their respective egos which ultimately reflects the work and the recognition of the work done.
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Tim Copeland

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2007, 08:56:22 PM »
Quote from: Jim Thompson on March 01, 2007, 08:43:02 PM
Tim,

The funny thing is that we all have a short list of people we'd call if wanted to build a few bunkers and none of them ever get any credit.  Even if one rattled off a number of construction companies, it wouldn't carry the weight of the shapers and bunker specialist out there.  The real fact, which I think you're on to, is that very few of the people that do the real work get the credit.  That's just part of the business.  By the way, Joe would be on my short list.

Cheers!

JT

Yes...it IS part of the business.  And I accept that fact.  

What I DO NOT accept is the glossing over of that fact by saying it doesnt happen.  Just as the Golf Course Superintendent is rarely mentioned or listed on a website......the construction company for many if not all courses is left out.

BTW...Luan plywood works well also to follow the contours of the edge of bunkers.  We used some to build the bunkers at Isleworth's short game area.  Those had a 4 inch vertical lip





Luan was added to some of these lips after installation of the fabric over the lip

1 architect.....1..........well...at least you have seen 1

16 years and I have seen 0....you got me
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 09:04:51 PM by Tim Copeland »
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Mike_Young

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Re:Bunker Edge Construction Methods.
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2007, 09:04:09 PM »
I think there are architects that can build bunkers, greens or whatever they need.....and I think there are architects that have never been on a machine and I think there are architects that have rarely been on a jobsite.  Every profession is that way.....
I also think there are some mediocre architects that once they had the opportunity to work with a "top" construction company and got out of their way became "better" architects overnite....they still don't have a clue except they now know who to hire....And that is a skill itself...
Fact is.....when you get in this golf business you know how it is and it isn't going to change.....the architect will always get the credit and will always get the blame....unless you are a signature archie and it is rare they get blamed.....
I think most major contractors know this and accept it .....
I think it was robert woodruff who started Coca cola who said" there was no limit to what one could do if he did not care who got the credit".......
Don't think architects never feel slighted when they see some course by a signature with a 20 mill budget and a 2 mill maintenance and a humongos marketing effort become a "best new"

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