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Patrick_Mucci

Compliance thru complaints
« on: February 28, 2007, 12:03:16 PM »
List the features or situations that created an outcry from golfers of, "unfairness" that architects responded to by altering their design or eliminating their design.

Do topshot bunkers fall into that category, or was their elimination financially driven ?

Kalen Braley

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2007, 12:20:32 PM »
My two cents would be flat greens.  While there are still some out there being built with good contouring, most greens on modern courses are pretty flat and boring.

Was this a product of golfer outcry?  I can't say for sure, but it sure seems feasible as undulating greens are resitant to scoring.

JMorgan

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2007, 12:29:23 PM »
Blind shots.

Patrick, my guess is topshot bunkers disappeared for financial reasons.  Not too many men golfers would openly admit that they are unfair (ie. ego), plus many players probably don't recognize them as topshot bunkers (ie. ego).

TEPaul

Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 12:37:46 PM »
"Do topshot bunkers fall into that category, or was their elimination financially driven ?"

Pat:

My course may be the best example available on the reasons for the removal of topshot bunkers (originally they were on up to 13-14 holes at GMGC).

They were removed in 1947 on the advice and direction of Boston architect Wayne Stiles.

I have his recommendations right here in writing and the reasons he gave are that they were a needless expense to maintain and they did not effect anyone strategically except the very short or poor player (little old women) which was something Stiles reasoned should not happen.

Gil Hanse wanted to put them all back in the last five years---their restoration was on his master plan.

I distinctly remember how it went:

One of the members of the committee who was shortly to run the club asked Gil how much it would cost to restore one of those bunkers and when Gil told him he said:

"Forget that, next item", and that was the end of the restoration of all Ross's topshot bunkers at GMGC---including one of the most unusual ones that was massive at the base of the quarry on the very short par 3 4th hole.

Gil was very disappointed to say the least.

Aronimink restored their top shot bunkers in the latest Prichard restoration although they did not originally have anywhere near as many of them as the much earlier GMGC did.

JMEvensky

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2007, 04:21:20 PM »
For a newbie,could someone please define a "top shot" bunker or direct me someplace where I could find a picture?The search function led me back to this topic.

Thanks in advance.

James Bennett

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2007, 05:27:57 PM »
Welcome JM

a top shot bunker is where you are likely to finish if you 'top' your drive.  Typically 150 yards or less from the tee.

As opposed to a 'top shot' bunker where your Sunday best might finish.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2007, 05:40:21 PM »
Also, don't forget that a topped ball in the days before fairway irrigation could easily rollout as far as a well hit shot. They were needed to strike a balance on dry dusty ground.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Phil Benedict

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2007, 05:47:47 PM »
I hope the topshot bunker went out of vogue because it's silly.  It punishes the weaker player and slows down play.

Kalen Braley

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2007, 06:23:15 PM »
I hope the topshot bunker went out of vogue because it's silly.  It punishes the weaker player and slows down play.

Are you suggesting that massive bunker/crater on the left side of 18 fairway at PD is silly? At 270 yards out, I can blow over it with my 5 iron..only a topped shot would bring that beast into play!  ;D

Ian Andrew

Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2007, 09:00:17 PM »
The TPC at Sawgrass was largely overhauled due to the outcry and complaints from the players. Those litlle  chocolate drop like mounds and severe green contours were the first to disappear.

Doug Siebert

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2007, 09:26:04 PM »
As Pete points out, before irrigation a fairly solid topped drive might roll out nearly as far as a properly hit ball.  Good players probably thought that was unfair and I'll bet THAT is the reason they were built.

Once irrigation happened and fairways shrunk so golfers had to carry some rough to get to the fairway, they became pointless.  Then a few years ago they became even more pointless, as big headed drivers and tall tees made topped drivers much more rare than they used to be.  The level of player who is likely to actually top a drive these days rarely even makes it to the fairway with such a drive, so the only thing the bunker will do is possibly catch their second shot when they flub it from the rough in front of the fairway!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 09:26:50 PM by Doug Siebert »
My hovercraft is full of eels.

TEPaul

Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2007, 07:44:02 AM »
For your information, I am in possession of a 1927 master plan document from Donald Ross on my own golf course in which he actually refers to these close bunkers as "Top Shot" bunkers.

John Gosselin

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2007, 08:09:16 AM »
I hope the topshot bunker went out of vogue because it's silly.  It punishes the weaker player and slows down play.

How boring golf must be for the shorter tee ball player these days. No more bunkers 130 to 160 yards off of the tee to try and carry. The thrill of carrying a fairway bunker off the tee to set yourself up to an ideal approach shot to the green is one of the great thrills in a round of golf.

Unfortunately I have been on at least 3 master plan plan committees that have made the decision to remove the short bunkers off the tee because it penalizes the weaker player. IMHO this is a terrible mistake that takes away a feature that would make the golf course much more interesting for them. This thought of putting in hazards that only the longer hitters can reach is a shame.



Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

JMorgan

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2007, 08:24:50 AM »
I hope the topshot bunker went out of vogue because it's silly.  It punishes the weaker player and slows down play.

How boring golf must be for the shorter tee ball player these days. No more bunkers 130 to 160 yards off of the tee to try and carry. The thrill of carrying a fairway bunker off the tee to set yourself up to an ideal approach shot to the green is one of the great thrills in a round of golf.

Unfortunately I have been on at least 3 master plan plan committees that have made the decision to remove the short bunkers off the tee because it penalizes the weaker player. IMHO this is a terrible mistake that takes away a feature that would make the golf course much more interesting for them. This thought of putting in hazards that only the longer hitters can reach is a shame.





Well said, John.

D_Malley

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2007, 10:08:53 AM »



we just put in this bunker only about 75 yards out from a new back tee.  i think it is a great bunker which makes players a little more uncomfortable on the tee because they can not see as much of the landing area.  it is not as much of an issue from the middle and forward tees which are placed more to the left of where photos were taken.  these bunkers work well in this situation because they make the shot a little more blind.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2007, 05:29:18 PM »
I hope the topshot bunker went out of vogue because it's silly.  It punishes the weaker player and slows down play.

How boring golf must be for the shorter tee ball player these days. No more bunkers 130 to 160 yards off of the tee to try and carry. The thrill of carrying a fairway bunker off the tee to set yourself up to an ideal approach shot to the green is one of the great thrills in a round of golf.

Unfortunately I have been on at least 3 master plan plan committees that have made the decision to remove the short bunkers off the tee because it penalizes the weaker player. IMHO this is a terrible mistake that takes away a feature that would make the golf course much more interesting for them. This thought of putting in hazards that only the longer hitters can reach is a shame.


John,

I see this pattern repeated, over and over again.

Democracy has a good deal to do with it.

As clubs transitioned from a narrow power base to a broad power base, the mediocre and poor players became the majority.  And, as society transitioned to the "ME" generation, this new found power manifested itself under the guise of "FAIRNESS".

As a result, wonderful features have been muted or removed over the years.

Rather than mute or remove a feature, consideration should be given to playing from alternative tees.
Yet, the "ME" generation doesn't want to play from the forward tees, instead, they'd rather mute or destroy the object of their concern, a wonderful, original feature.

I've seen so many features muted, disfigured and destroyed in the name of "fairness"

As to "Top Shot" bunkers, many of them served to obscure the land behind them, thus serving more than one purpose.
Blindness, was likely imported/transported from the UK by the likes of DR and others and found its place in golf in the form of low, but effective, top shot bunkers.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2007, 06:19:56 PM »
Racetrack George,

Great bunker, now move the cartpath into the woods.

Has the cry for fairness tempered the architect's creative process ?

Joe Hancock

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2007, 08:52:17 PM »
Pat,

If memory seves correctly, I believe there are several bunkers as you describe still in existance at Lawsonia. I think the first evidence of such is on the second hole. Maybe someone with more intimate knowledge of the course can confirm this.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Kalen Braley

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2007, 09:11:34 PM »
I think the lack of these "top bunkers" is completely a matter of cost.  How many modern courses are built today that have a carry over a waste area/unkept area, pond or otherwise?

I don't really see this a reaction to complaining because if so we wouldn't see so many forced carries from the tees of so many courses today.

Doug Siebert

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2007, 01:43:48 AM »
How boring golf must be for the shorter tee ball player these days. No more bunkers 130 to 160 yards off of the tee to try and carry. The thrill of carrying a fairway bunker off the tee to set yourself up to an ideal approach shot to the green is one of the great thrills in a round of golf.

Unfortunately I have been on at least 3 master plan plan committees that have made the decision to remove the short bunkers off the tee because it penalizes the weaker player. IMHO this is a terrible mistake that takes away a feature that would make the golf course much more interesting for them. This thought of putting in hazards that only the longer hitters can reach is a shame.






That's an interesting point.  I'm sure some women and seniors would prefer those bunkers aren't there because they have enough trouble as it is, especially when they get to the greens that are often surrounded by bunkers and allow no option to run the ball onto the green.

On the other hand I'm sure you are correct that others would feel they are missing something if they never have to face any real difficulty off the tee.

Maybe instead of separating tees by distance, it would more interesting to separate them by skill.  The amount of land required would be an issue, of course, but I could see it as quite interesting to have a design where the shorter tees come in from different angles, one of which offers a more challenging tee shot that may have to clear a bunker, have a narrower landing area or whatever, while the other offers much less trouble.  Are there any designs like this (for the whole course, I'm sure there are thousands of examples of individual holes like this)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

John Gosselin

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2007, 10:36:25 AM »
Pat, from my experience I think you are absolutely right. I have had to soften or remove many features, mostly bunkers, over the years for the sake of "FAIRNESS", not financial reasons. Usually the decision comes from a committee, that caves into one particular vocal member, who views these features as penalizing to the weaker players. It is a misconception based on the need for fairness. They don't see these hazards as adding interest or fun to their rounds.

Off topic a bit, but when discussing daily pin placements at my current course of employment I never use the words difficult or hard. This is in an effort to get the players not to view the more challenging pin placements as a negative. We have replaced the old language of having six easy, six medium, and six hard pin placements each day, to six boring, six medium, and six interesting ones. That simple language change has all but eliminated the numerous complaints we were getting on our more interesting pins.

It seems the words difficult/hard send up a red flag with many players whether your talking general course set up or architectural features.  







Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

D_Malley

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2007, 02:05:15 PM »
pat
there has been crys for fairness, but they have not tempered the architect at all.  we are lucky that it is not a private equity situation.  by the way that cart path will be moved to the right towards the woods when we change the hole sequence on the back 9.  check out the new PN bunker on #5

http://www.paxonhollowgolf.com/index2.html

Phil Benedict

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2007, 03:28:30 PM »



we just put in this bunker only about 75 yards out from a new back tee.  i think it is a great bunker which makes players a little more uncomfortable on the tee because they can not see as much of the landing area.  it is not as much of an issue from the middle and forward tees which are placed more to the left of where photos were taken.  these bunkers work well in this situation because they make the shot a little more blind.


With the high grass I don't see how anyone could ever get into this bunker!

I had never considered John Gosselin's point about hazards that don't challenge long hitters but create interest for others.  Point taken.  However, a bunker 75 yards from the tee will only capture severe mishits, which mostly are hit by weaker players (Pat Mucci probably tops a handful of drives a year, if that).  And where's the challenge of trying to carry a hazard 75 yards away? Unless you think "don't top it" is a good swing thought.

mike_malone

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2007, 03:38:04 PM »
 R george,

    Which hole is that? I need to get my cronnies out there.
AKA Mayday

Greg Murphy

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Re:Compliance thru complaints
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2007, 05:44:00 PM »
The most common complaint I hear from players: penal fairway bunkers that prevent a shot to the green or make such an attempt risky. They think it unfair and "bad architecture" if a bunker does not allow the opportunity for a complete recovery. Dramatic green contouring/slope would be second. Unlike penal bunkering, most players like the idea of interesting greens with lots of movement. However, they also want them super fast and they feel they should always be able to chip or lag a ball from above the hole and have it stop near the hole. They consider it unfair and bad design if they can't. Given a choice, they'd rather have super fast speeds than interesting uphill/sidehill/downhill putts. So we get flat greens.