What is the best green for encouraging multiple approach angles?

[Adam_F_Collins]

How does an architect create a green that calls for many different angles of approach, based on the position of the hole? What are some great examples of greens that do this? What qualities must they possess?

[Doug Ralston]

Lassing Point #18 is 101 yd long and 20-30yd wide, it is across a pond from the approach landing area and recedes diagonally right to left. If the pin is right, you may use a short iron, if it is left, a 3-5wood may be in order. Beautiful hole by Hurdzan!

http://www.golfkentuckylinks.com/Pages/Photo%20Pages/Lassing%20Pointe%20Photo.html

Pix!

Doug

[Jeff Doerr]

Adam,

Good questions, how 'bout one at a time.

A c3 / clover idea works for me. That is two back pin areas that ask for an approach from the other side of the fairway.

[Kyle Harris]

Adam,

I think you may be answering your own question in the question.

Angles, IMO, are one of the best ways - as in sharp ones.

I think squarish greens may be one of the best method by which an architect can really confound the strategy all the way back to the tee. Throw in a simple feature or two on the green and the sophistication really comes through.

Let me get some pictures today at work to explain.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

Ben Crenshaw always spoke highly of the second green at Augusta with its two wings ... when the flag was on the left he wanted to play his second shot way to the right, and vice versa.  We've tried to use the same kind of green for a short par-4 occasionally, such as the 7th on The Rawls Course.

Another concept I'm fond of is orienting the green on a par five to provide a lot of depth and not much width to players going for it in two, but then offsetting the second half of the fairway so a safe bail-out gives them very little depth to play to.  There are a lot of things wrong with the 18th hole at High Pointe but that green is not one of them.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

How about a green with a strong central spine running doen the centre line - separating the left from the right part of the green?

It’s self evident that the player is encouraged to favour the same side of the fairway as the pin position on the green to achieve the best angle.

Coming in from the opposite side and angle means the player has to negotiate the unpredictable spine.
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

Great question.  As mentioned, I think the "Gull Wing" green favors a left approach when pin is right, and vice versa.

I also think the "A Frame" green with a center bunker favors a left approach when pin is left, and vice versa.  A center spline would work similarly.  

A large, long green with splines coming in from the sides at different depths and angles might encourage a shot away from the spline, as the receptive contours could open up from the opposite side of the fw.

Simiarly, a green that sloped up to right in the front and up left in the back might be more repceptive from the opposite side of the fw when the pin is front or back.

[Sean_A]

I was going to say domed greens such as Foxy.  Though some would say they don't encourage approaches from any angle!

Ciao

[Cassandra Burns]

What about the 6th hole at the University of Michigan, a MacKenzie design?  It features a two-tier horseshoe green.  The lower front tier is easily accessed from many positions on this short 309 yard par 4, while the upper back tier is narrow and favors an approach from the right side.

http://www.mgoblue.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=7290#

[Kalen Braley]

The 17th at GlenAbbey is a unique horse-shoe green with a few mini dog legs in it. I would imagine there is lots of strategy on where to appraoch it from based on the pin location.

[Jeff_Brauer]

What about the 6th hole at the University of Michigan, a MacKenzie design?  It features a two-tier horseshoe green.  The lower front tier is easily accessed from many positions on this short 309 yard par 4, while the upper back tier is narrow and favors an approach from the right side.

http://www.mgoblue.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=7290#

What always killed me about UM was that Mac put nearly the same green on the Par 3 14th hole.......I think the sixth is the better version though.  And unless a wild green has alternate tees, like Riv 15, the angle of play concept is kinda shot......

[Sean_A]

What about the 6th hole at the University of Michigan, a MacKenzie design?  It features a two-tier horseshoe green.  The lower front tier is easily accessed from many positions on this short 309 yard par 4, while the upper back tier is narrow and favors an approach from the right side.

http://www.mgoblue.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=7290#

What always killed me about UM was that Mac put nearly the same green on the Par 3 14th hole.......I think the sixth is the better version though.  And unless a wild green has alternate tees, like Riv 15, the angle of play concept is kinda shot......

Jeff

I know what you mean about the 14th.  It is in the same vein, but much, much milder than the 6th.  

I don't understand your comments about alternate tees.  The 6th is a very different hole depending on if the pin is forward or back.  God forbid if the pin is in the middle!

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

How does an architect create a green that calls for many different angles of approach, based on the position of the hole? What are some great examples of greens that do this? What qualities must they possess?

AFC,

The 7th at NGLA can be approached from any one of 360 degrees and still present a unique, interesting and challenging shot.

I suspect that the 17th at TOC will present a similar situation.

[Adam_F_Collins]

what about a round(ish) green with a buried elephant right in the middle? Kind of a... um... a n i p p l e green.

I'm sorry, my wife is breast feeding.

But seriously - would that work?

[Jason Topp]

Front to back slope.

[Patrick_Mucci]

what about a round(ish) green with a buried elephant right in the middle? Kind of a... um... a logo green.

I'm sorry, my wife is breast feeding.

But seriously - would that work?

AFC,

Do you know what's involved in modifying a USGA spec green ?

Do you think members would be willing to disfigure their club's greens for a tournament ?  (I know, some do)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Front to back slope.

That's great,

And what happens to the water that accumulates there every time it rains ?
Or every night after the irrigation has run for half an hour ?

The notion that you can easily alter a golf course to resolve all of the problems associated with presenting a challenge is ludicrous.

[Adam_F_Collins]

had to modify my post. It seems that this forum software changes the word ni pp le (without the spaces) to 'logo'...

? odd.

[Ben Voelker]

The 8th at Sand Hills comes to mind.  I really liked that green and actually thought that hole might be better than the 7th because of the wicked green.  The big boomerang with the crazy back to front slope is really cool.

[Ramon Ware]

I remember playing the 9th at Poppy Hills..  and it's such an enormous green, which if memory serves me correctly, is two-tier and just enormous.

The hole, in general, has some length to it, and can be played in a number of ways, and it really depends on the pin placement for sure...  Because anything up front, you can really go for it, and anything in the back requires quite a bit of carry to get there.

[Jason Topp]

Front to back slope.

That's great,

And what happens to the water that accumulates there every time it rains ?
Or every night after the irrigation has run for half an hour ?

The notion that you can easily alter a golf course to resolve all of the problems associated with presenting a challenge is ludicrous.

I thought this was a hypothetical discussion about greens that reward well placed tee shots that leave a preferred angle?  I think  front to back sloped greens do this well.  I see no new maintenence issues.