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John Kavanaugh

What course is this?
« on: February 21, 2007, 04:58:17 PM »
I am but a humble Buckeye who belongs to a very old, venerable and historic course in Cincinnati.  Our bunkering was butchered in the past and it took some of the ethos and history out of it.  Now we've reclaimed our birthright.

Mike_Cirba

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2007, 05:17:45 PM »
John,

I think if the author of that quote wanted us to know the name of the club he would have simply stated it.

Mike

John Kavanaugh

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2007, 05:41:18 PM »
I thought he was just being humble and clever.  It may even lead to some architectural discussion and I think he is safe from access requests  considering there are 1881 B Smith's in Ohio alone.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2007, 05:44:19 PM »
Since Carmago is the obvious, it can't be that. Can it?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2007, 05:45:42 PM »
Since Carmago is the obvious, it can't be that. Can it?

Seems obvious to me...Who recently did the work there and what was done?

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2007, 05:48:07 PM »
Since Carmago is the obvious, it can't be that. Can it?

Seems obvious to me...Who recently did the work there and what was done?

Doesnt matter who did the work...the architect will get the credit for pulling it all together.....
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

John Kavanaugh

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2007, 05:52:58 PM »
What the hell does that mean...I probably heard Jim Wagner's name mentioned no less than a dozen times just this weekend.

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2007, 05:58:48 PM »
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27908

This and many others on here are not acurate...Nicklaus was the architect but the company does not get the credit....sometimes...doesnt get paid.

You think Coore and Crenshaw are out there hewing their courses from the earth??lol

Name the architect....fine

There also has to be a builder
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2007, 06:01:47 PM »
BTW....not picking on you or the site....It is just a pet peeve of mine
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

John Kavanaugh

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2007, 06:06:56 PM »
Don't worry, we will both know when you are picking on me.  Just don't get too whiny.  That is a pet peeve of mine.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2007, 06:07:35 PM »
Doak

John Kavanaugh

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2007, 06:08:27 PM »
puke..end of thread.

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2007, 06:08:33 PM »
Don't worry, we will both know when you are picking on me.  Just don't get too whiny.  That is a pet peeve of mine.

Trust me...I dont whine
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2007, 06:10:59 PM »
Doak

Typical...maybe the site should be renamed
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

scott_wood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2007, 09:02:12 PM »
 Mr Kavanaugh, a guess might be Hyde Park, the old Ross course which had seen many changes over the years, like so many courses from the Golden Era.....a few years back ( 2001??) there was talk/effort put in to a "renovation" effort...not sure of the outcome... ???

John Kavanaugh

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2007, 09:09:27 PM »
Mr Kavanaugh, a guess might be Hyde Park, the old Ross course which had seen many changes over the years, like so many courses from the Golden Era.....a few years back ( 2001??) there was talk/effort put in to a "renovation" effort...not sure of the outcome... ???

Thanks...I knew this thread had potential to be interesting.  Another guy mentioned something like Avon Lakes before Mike Cirba aka MPCirba scared him off.

Glenn Spencer

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2007, 11:18:46 PM »
FWIW, I would stop well short of referring to Hyde Park as venerable and historic. The same also goes for Camargo for the most part. Avon Lakes? This course is located in Northeast Ohio to my knowledge. 7700 yards or something crazy like that.

John Kavanaugh

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2007, 11:31:50 PM »
Glenn,

You surprised me with your take on Camargo so I checked Ran's write up and found the following: "In judging Camargo, many people seem willing to overlook the von Hagge bunkers that are completely out of character on (in particular) a Seth Raynor course. If Doak and his Renaissance Design Firm were allowed to complete their restoration, then Camargo would indeed be worthy of the lofty praise associated with a course considered one of the fifty best in the world. However, until the restoration is complete, the authors feel a tinge of regret as to the slow progress."  So, did Doak ever get around to fixing the bunkers?

Glenn Spencer

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2007, 11:52:56 PM »
John,

I have no idea. I haven't been out to Camargo in a couple of years. To be honest, I don't think that I would have been able to tell anyway(still don't), but I can't remember anything different from the 15 or so times I had played it. It is a wonderful place, but even though venerable probably does apply, it is not in the first thousand words that come to my mind when hearing Camargo. Is it one of the top 50 in the world before or after the renovations? I doubt it. It is special though. All that being said, it does have some of my favorite par 4's in the world. They say it is recognized for the short holes, but I love some of the par 4's out there. I could play 10 and only 10 for the rest of my life. I have always considered the tee shot a 'poor man's' Merion #1. It is cocktails at Camargo and obviously lunch at Merion that add the flavor.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 11:58:04 PM by Glenn Spencer »

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2007, 08:32:34 AM »
I know Tim Liddy was supposed to be working on a plan for renovating/restoring Hyde Park, but don't know if anything's come of it.

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2007, 08:52:05 AM »
This is certainly a reference to Camargo. Doak did significant bunker work but I think none in the past two years. I heard but can not vrify that Doak has an ongoing consulting agreement with the club.

Hyde Park is a fine course. Brad Klein helped tham write a long term plan a few years ago. I do not have info on what has been done, though I don't think much as I have a number of friends who are members and have heard nothing.

Coldstream has completed significant bunker restoration over the past three years, but it can hardly be labled "very old" or "venerated," having been opened circa 1960 (Wilson/von Hagge.) It is an excellent course, however.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2007, 09:03:19 AM »
FWIW, I would stop well short of referring to Hyde Park as venerable and historic. The same also goes for Camargo for the most part. Avon Lakes? This course is located in Northeast Ohio to my knowledge. 7700 yards or something crazy like that.

Avon Fields (Ross)... it's a muni in Cincy, not private.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2007, 02:51:39 PM »
John K:

We finished the bunker restoration work at Camargo maybe four years ago.  Ran's review is quite a bit older than that, I think.

Camargo is interesting because it might be the first case of "restoration" I know of.  I was first sent there by Pete Dye in 1984 ... Pete had urged the club NOT to rebuild its bunkering in the 1960's, and when they decided twenty years later they'd made a mistake, they called him.  He didn't want to mess with it, but told them he would send them someone who knew what Raynor's work should look like.  (Me.)  Sometimes when I hear Pete talk about the folly of restoration, I think back to Camargo and wonder what changed his mind ... anyway, that's pretty close to a full restoration now although there are a handful of bunkers we haven't put sand back into because I can't see the benefit.

P.S.  The greens expansion and bunker work was done over a 15-year period.  A lot of the construction was done in-house, but the last big push by a contractor from Ohio, Mid-America.  My supervising associate was Tom Mead originally, and Don Placek for the last phase of the work.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 02:55:23 PM by Tom_Doak »

Ryan DeMay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What course is this?
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2007, 03:03:37 PM »
Quote
FWIW, I would stop well short of referring to Hyde Park as venerable and historic. The same also goes for Camargo for the most part. Avon Lakes? This course is located in Northeast Ohio to my knowledge. 7700 yards or something crazy like that.

I believe the course in NE Ohio that Glenn is referring to is Avalon Lakes (Dye/Liddy).  

And Glenn, it's only 7,551 yards  ;).

Glenn Spencer

Re:What course is this?
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2007, 07:24:06 PM »
Ahhh... Thank you Ryan.

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