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Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2006, 12:12:58 AM »
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I'm not sure why people are negative about KH's routing, perhaps it is the only point of weakness they see in KH. If they attack it, they can advance their own horse in this particular race. The mostly falacious reasoning advanced by critics of KH in this thread has only convinced me of one thing. Woodlands or Commonwealth will never be rated above KH on any course list either in Australia or worldwide.

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Anthony, that post is typical of the malaise this board seems to slipped into.  Rather than respond to any of the points raised, instead make a mildly derogatory post dismissing the points raised.  You then compound it by referring to ratings. ::)  The routing may in fact be the only point of weakness at KH, but I'd suggest there are few who would argue it isn't at the heart of great architecture.  The fact the routing is relatively unbalanced is a very large weakness from my perspective.  And I struggle to understand why this should be so shocking, Soutar's brief was almost the antithesis of good architecture (except for those who equate difficulty with quality ::)).

Maybe I should have 'quoted' Mike Clayton's routing reply in my reply. But is it necessary to summarise or reference all the previous posts that support your point of view to prevent replies that start "rather than respond.." or "If you had read my post"...?

To summarise a previous post of mine... C/W has the property to potentially host a better course than KH, but it doesn't. The good holes at C/W represent an exception to some poorly executed ones. #9 in particular is preceeded by several holes that do a poor job of using the terrain or adding to the natural challenge,. The great holes at KH add variety to some other very good holes. I'm not going to debate the merits of Woodlands because I haven't played the course for over 20 years, the only impression I have left is that it certainly didn't measure up to the previous day's competition at Royal Melbourne. So much could have changed during that time that my opinion is irrelevant next to those who have played the course more often and more recently.  

You last point about "Soutar's brief was almost the antithesis of good architecture". I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this...
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James_Livingston

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2006, 01:21:23 AM »
I'm not so sure that Woodlands works over every club in the bag, especially the par.4's. I played the Vic Open there this year and of the 20 par 4's I played, I hit 1 5-iron and 1 6-iron into greens, everything else was 7-LW.

The 5-iron was on 16 after hitting a rescue off the tee. I am not long off the tee at all, but still hit 9-iron into 10 both days, SW and PW into 14, 6 and 7-iron into 9 and when I hit driver on 16 in the second round had 8-iron in.

To me the par 4's at KH work over all your irons a lot more than Woodlands does. Also the green complexes are better designed for longer club approaches, which is very important down the line if tees are to be pushed back.
Rich, I probably should have qualified that with "for mere mortals" :).  Whilst you may not be long off the tee in comparison with your peer group and I've never seen you play from you've just cited you are probably well within the top 1% for driving distance of all golfers.  It is probably a fair illustration of why it is futile building ever longer courses, as the added length poses relatively less challenge to the tiny amount of elite golfers than to the majority of golfers who have trouble hitting it anywhere near 200 metres, usually considerably less.

Which in part answers Kevin's question about why I view Woodlands the way I do.  It is short enough to provide plenty of opportunity for the ordinary golfer, whilst providing plenty of challenge for the elite golfer.  It gets it right as well as any course I've played.  A large part of this is the result of having the 3 short par fours with great risk/reward elements.  KH, with the 3 or 4 extra long par fours, is slightly less ideal (imo :D).  I have vivid memories being paired with an 18 and 20 marker at KH who scored 25 stablefords - in a better ball - with perfect still conditions :o.  My disdain is chiefly reserved for modern courses such as Moonah Links Open and National Moonah - not terribly difficult for top golfers but absurdly so for the average chopper.  The choppers simply have no chance of being able to string enough decent shots together to negotiate those sort of distances.  Of course, it is a matter of perspective, and I don't really give much weight to how a professional or elite amateur plays a course as they pretty much play a different game from the rest of us.  Others clearly place a much greater weight at that end of the spectrum.

You last point about "Soutar's brief was almost the antithesis of good architecture". I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this...
Anthony, Soutar's brief was along the lines of delivering a championship course that will stand the test of time.  KH was in many ways the Moonah Links Open course of its day, with a lot of controversy about its length.  I don't find it surprising that MacKenzie recommended reducing its length.  This narrow brief is presumably why what was then an extremely long golf course was delivered.  My experience playing with double digit club golfers most weeks suggests it is difficult, if not impossible, to cater for the all levels of golfers building such long courses.  It is a testament to their success in fulfilling this brief that I reckon it is still too difficult for the typical 'c' grader even today.  Clearly, I expect everyone to disagree with me. :D
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 01:23:34 AM by James_L »

RichMacafee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2006, 02:32:47 AM »
James,

I totally agree with you, and think that one of the main reasons both KH and Woodlands are such great courses is that they are so playable for golfers of any handicap (so long as you can get out of a bunker that is ;))

You could almost play both courses with a putter if you wanted and still get it around, which of course is something that McKenzie would love about them both.

I guess my point was that Woodlands does lack the good long par 4's that the Heath has. While they do play pretty long for the average member, they are rated so that anyone off more than single figures gets a shot on all of them. None have a forced carry of more than about 60-70 meters, and none have hazards at the front of the green. If you use your shot wisely you should be having a putt for a nett birdie every time.

Course length is not everything I agree, Spencer Levin shot 63 at Moonah Links! He is 5 ft something and ranked 500+ in the world - the pros will murder most courses in perfect conditions irrespective of the length. I just feel that KH tests the scratch golfer more completely than Woodlands does, while both offer the 18-25 marker an equally fair and enjoyable challenge. Maybe if I played off 25 I would feel differently however ;)
"The uglier a man's legs are, the better he plays golf. It's almost law" H.G.Wells.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2006, 01:59:33 PM »
[quote ]
Anthony, Soutar's brief was along the lines of delivering a championship course that will stand the test of time.  KH was in many ways the Moonah Links Open course of its day, with a lot of controversy about its length.  :D
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Not that I recall a lot of forced carries at KH but don't they have a white tee policy for 19+ h'cappers at KH? BTW-I believe The Old Course was 6300+ yds in 1880 when the feathery was still in play. 6800yd with a Pro V1 and a titanium driver doesn't seem like much of stretch.
Next!

RichMacafee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2006, 06:55:54 PM »
[quote ]


Not that I recall a lot of forced carries at KH but don't they have a white tee policy for 19+ h'cappers at KH?

No they don't, and never have.
"The uglier a man's legs are, the better he plays golf. It's almost law" H.G.Wells.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #130 on: February 20, 2007, 01:50:47 PM »
Bump. Must reading for anyone considering a trip to Australia. 8)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 01:51:19 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mark_F

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #131 on: February 20, 2007, 09:34:44 PM »
Ed,

The perfect Golf Club Atlas thread.

Insight, abuse, humour, scintillating personalities, differing opinions, education in use of Australian slang.

You have a high standard to live up to when you post your own thoughts in a couple of months.  :)

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #132 on: February 21, 2007, 01:50:49 AM »
Mark,
   You don't really think I will post my thoughts after golfing with you guys do you? :) You guys are brutal. I'd just as soon play a cartball course, with game-improvement clubs, on a course with flat greens, and six hour rounds. ;)
   You are so right Mark, this is the quintessential thread that makes GCA such a great resource. I am really looking forward to seeing it all for myself.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mark_F

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #133 on: February 21, 2007, 04:03:13 AM »
I'd just as soon play a cartball course, with game-improvement clubs, on a course with flat greens, and six hour rounds. ;)

Ed,

I am sure Metropolitan would be delighted to host you.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #134 on: February 21, 2007, 01:48:05 PM »
Mark,
    You have an interesting way of cultivating goodwill. :)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #135 on: February 21, 2007, 03:11:42 PM »
Will Woodlands play firm for Ed or has it been soft again this year?

Mark_F

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #136 on: February 21, 2007, 04:20:35 PM »
Ed,

There was, of course, supposed to be a smiley after that sentence.

I imagine most courses will be firm, as water has been in scarce supply here the last few months.

Of course, a biblical quality deluge will probably happen the minute Ed steps onto the tarmac at Tullamarine, but at least that will keep the flies and mozzies away.

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #137 on: February 21, 2007, 04:23:43 PM »
Jason the course played very firm for the recent Victorian Open. We are in the middle of a drought here so as Mark says things are generally very dry, however some clubs have been pouring the water onto the greens and tees to keep them alive. I'd expect Woodlands to play firm for some time yet until we hit the middle of winter at least.

Shane.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #138 on: February 21, 2007, 10:00:59 PM »
Ed,

The perfect Golf Club Atlas thread.

Insight, abuse, humour, scintillating personalities, differing opinions, education in use of Australian slang.

You have a high standard to live up to when you post your own thoughts in a couple of months.  :)

Agree with Mark. It will be interesting as to whether he picks any lingo up with him. BTW - Ed - stay away the pots in Melbourne the schooies are much better over the border.

;D

PS: Ed - I can guarantee that the winds will be blowing at NSW  ;)

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #139 on: February 22, 2007, 03:43:27 PM »
schooies?
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mark_F

Re:Three Sandbelt Courses and Undulation
« Reply #140 on: February 22, 2007, 06:56:43 PM »
Ed,

I'm not a drinker, but Kevin must be referring to a "schooner", which is a larger glass of beer than a "pot", but I have never heard it called that before.

Still, as a New South Welshman, it is understandable if he has problems with the English language. Intelligence is in short supply north of the Murray.

The fact that their incompetent state government can keep getting voted in speaks volumes for the simians who inhabit that strange foreign territory.


 

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