[Geoffrey Childs]

Peter -  good post.

If you are trying to say that you can admire that Tom Fazio is a leader and starts new trends and that is a good thing then I wholeheartedly agree with you. He also has the strength of his beliefs and courage to write it down in a book.  He (and Pete Dye as well) have pioneered new technologies to use in golf design.  I'm not a fan that many of these have increased costs immensely but that is another issue.

Again, the issue here is not his leadership in building new and better golf courses.  The issue with Riviera, Augusta and others is the imprint he leaves on the work of others. Let them stand the test of time (or not) on their own and let his original designs be compared with them. (Again- the membership or owners can do as they wish - and we can like it or not as we wish)

[Peter Pallotta]

Geoffrey

I don't know you, but you seem to me a sly old fox of a man. You don't happen to have any of the leprechaun in you, by any chance?

No, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. In the way I use the terms, and in my humble opinion, someone who says, essentially, "I don't think the people will go for that, so I won't go there" is a follower and not a leader. He might be bold in his way, and even brave, and might end up having great influence, but he's a follower nonetheless (not that it's a crime; much useful and decent work is done that way).

You say the issue is not about leadership. I'm not so sure. It seems to me that the original designers aspired to put into form ideals and philosophies they believed deeply in. Is the current designer doing the same? If so, his guiding philosophy seems to be "give the people what they want".  Maybe we'll have to wait for the test of time, but if Mr. Fazio himself is aspiring to nothing higher than satisfying current tastes, he has already sealed his own fate.

Peter          

[Geoffrey Childs]

Peter

Wow- This post is even better then the last.  I like you and we have to have a game together some time!

I'd disagree that Mr Fazio is a follower who just gives the people what they want and only satisfies current tastes. I think his writing is clear that he aspires (in his own work) for the ages and thinks his 200 top 20 golf courses will be just those recognized in 100 years as being superior.  I also disagree with Mr Fazio on that point but I do think he evolved his style into a great business that builds very good and very expensive golf courses without being great ones for the ages. I much prefer the work of other living architects but I will give him his credit where due.  My criticism is with his changing the work of others and not with his original designs.

[Jim Nugent]

Geoffrey Childs would likely concur with me that it might be the greatest test in the world in identifying the truly fantastic and inimitable golfer, particularly the back nine.

Mike, while you may well be right about that, it makes me wonder why TW has never won at Riviera.  I guess he just hasn't been on his game.  Looks like Jack may never have won there either.  

I love what I saw of Riviera from the gallery during a few L.A. Opens in the 1980's and 90's.  Would be quite happy to play there regularly.  

 

[David Stamm]

I have but three words in response as to whether I would take a membership at Riviera.


HELL FREAKIN' YES!!!!  


Okay, I have to add a few more words.


I have to agree with JK, despite whatever so called negatives anyone might come up with, we all here would consider it a honor to call Riviera home. What more could guys like us here could ever ask from a club? Ryan covered pretty well what I was thinking. I think sometimes we all can get a little overly critical and when we have to actually think about whether we would like to call Riviera our home club, perhaps jaded.

[wsmorrison]

While it is hard to say from 3000 miles away, I would say YES as a second club.  

What is the membership like?  Does it seem like corporate golf?  Can guests play without a member (not something I approve of)?  Can you get a game with friendly members on a regular basis and what are tee time availabilities?  How's the club culture and ethos?  Is there a caddy program or does everyone take carts?  What are the junior programs and ladies programs like?  Is it family friendly?  How much golf is lost to the annual tournament and what is the condition like after everyone leaves?  How often are holes out of play during the year?  Does the average member have any input, sit on any committees?  How much to join and how much dues and how does it compare to like clubs in the area?

If this was to be my one and only club, I would want to know the answers to these questions.  I joined a club with great architecture (much closer to the original designer, though it is straying mightily now) and it wasn't enough in the end.  

I think if everyone here asked hard questions and had certain expectations beyond the actual architecture, the real answers might not be so unanimous as an only club membership.  There seems to be a lot of fantasizing on here.  Realities can intrude on those fantasies.  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Terry,

I respectfully disagree.

Should Geoffrey Childs just have kept his mouth shut about the butchering of the bunkers at Yale by Roger Rulewich, just because it's a fabulous, historic course and he should have felt merely privileged to be a member and play there?

Mike,

I disrespectfully disagree.

Geoff was a dues paying member, not a disconnected voice from cyberspace.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

BTW, Jim...

Coore and Crenshaw were asked to do the renovations at Merion.

My understanding is that they refused in a very gentlemanly, but very firm manner.

Mike,

Are you sure that their declination wasn't related to their relationship with Gil Hanse ?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

No Pat Mucci here, I know when I bite off more than I can chew...

Quitter  [/color]

"Is it better for architects who love the classics to walk away when they smell "renovation" instead of restoration or preservation when they know that the owners are just going to find another architect who might not be as sensitive or skillful?  

I am sure those interested in preservation have assumed that if a committee has its sights set on "renovation", they couldn't stop them in the long run anyway?


JES II,

This is what 99 % of GCA.com'ers don't get.

If the committee/owner has a predetermined goal, they're going to achieve it in all but a few circumstances.

It's like the patient who consults with a great number of doctors until he finds one whose diagnosis agrees with his.

The architect is merely the instrument of the committee.

I don't know if there's an architect out there who hasn't changed a feature or hole, that left to reflect upon it, probably feels that if the choice was his, he'd have left it alone.[/color]

[David Stamm]

While it is hard to say from 3000 miles away, I would say YES as a second club.  

What is the membership like?  Does it seem like corporate golf?  Can guests play without a member?  Can you get a game with friendly members on a regular basis and what are tee time availabilities?  How's the club culture and ethos?  Is there a caddy program or does everyone take carts?  What are the junior programs and ladies programs like?  Is it family friendly?  How much golf is lost to the annual tournament and what is the condition like after everyone leaves?  How often are holes out of play during the year?  Does the average member have any input, sit on any committees?  How much to join and how much dues and how does it compare to like clubs in the area?

If this was to be my one and only club, I would want to know the answers to these questions.  I joined a club with great architecture (much closer to the original designer, though it is straying mightily now) and it wasn't enough in the end.  

I think if everyone here asked hard questions and had certain expectations beyond the actual architecture, the real answers might not be so unanimous as an only club membership.  There seems to be a lot of fantasizing on here.  Realities can intrude on those fantasies.  

Wayne, of course you bring up some very valid points and of course if one were to actually be in the position to choose what he or she wanted to do, then all of these things must be taken into consideration. I admit, I'm looking strictly at the course itself and surely there is much more to the equation as you brought out. But, looking at the surrounding area and So Cal in general, there are only a hand full of clubs that can even be mentioned in the same breath. Obviously one needs to ask what is important to them and also ask what one is willing to put up with. I know nothing of the inner workings of Riviera, so I can't answer any of the questions that you ask. All I do know is, if I was in the position to choose, I would have a very difficult time not choosing Riviera based strictly on the course.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is the grass, the grass that makes Riviera tough to swallow. It is a world class course with muni turf. Most of the neighbors have better yards than Riviera does fairways.

[John Kavanaugh]

It is the grass, the grass that makes Riviera tough to swallow. It is a world class course with muni turf. Most of the neighbors have better yards than Riviera does fairways.

Tiger,

When is the last time you have played there.  I played early Monday morning after a small shower that night and the fairways were still rolling out 20 to 50 yds on every drive.  There was not a divot to be found or worn out cross walk.  The course was perfect hours after a tour event.  Bump and runs are to be had with 5 irons or metals and the greens may have been what perfect is.  

note:  With all this talk about both the membership and owners you should have seen the collection of wonderful happy faces that rainy Monday morning.  Every single member I met or passed in the hall greeted me with a smile and made me feel welcome.  At breakfast they involved me in their converstations and on the first tee asked me and my host if we would like to join them for the round.  Beautiful swings and beautiful people just like LA should be.  If you ever get a chance to go in the mens locker room and are taking time to look at the painted portraits of the past champions of the LA Open take a little detour to the cubby hole where scores are posted.  In there you will find the smaller photographs of the current club champions for the many member events.  It will erase any questions about if these are the kind of guys you would want to hang with.

I've played twice now in the last month or so, once at 8:00 am on a Friday morning and then at 7:00 am on a holiday the monday after the Nissan.  Prime times without question and both times we had sub four hour rounds walking.  How many times can it just be luck.

[Tom Birkert]

Firstly I need to clarify that I doubt I would be able to afford to be a Member there, but then that could hold true for a lot of high end course in the US. Thankfully it's more affordable this side of the Pond!

I played there very early on a Monday morning with a friend and a couple of hosts. Both our hosts were exceptional golfers (always a good sign). We took caddies (another good sign) and the course was pretty much deserted. The changing rooms were very nice, a lot more conservative than I would have predicted.

I thought it was a lovely track, very challenging from the plates. The one thing that I wouldn't like is the reliance on the flop shot. I like to be able to use variety in my short game, and that really is impossible due to grass.

From what I saw when I played there I would be delighted to be a Member.

[tlavin]

It is the grass, the grass that makes Riviera tough to swallow. It is a world class course with muni turf. Most of the neighbors have better yards than Riviera does fairways.

Actually, I think the grass is one of the greatest features of the Riv, because it is unpredictable.  Sometimes the ball flies out of the rough and sometimes the grass acts like velcro.  I'm sure it would be tough on me as a member, but the fact that it is tough on the pros is a real plus.

[Michael Robin]

Wayne - here are some answers to your second club questioneer:

1. Membership is a colorful mix of Business Leaders, Doctors, Lawyers, Studio Execs, Agents, Actors, Writers, Producers, Directors, etc.. Mostly really good people, a little less of a good golfers club than it used to be, but still our fair share of good players.

2. The corporate aspect is a small category of membership. Mostly, you know every face you see and have some type of history with them.

3. Guests can play without a member, but the rate is a little scary.

4. There are no tee times except for outside guest play which is limited to a few times a day during the week, and no more than one group in any hour. Usually, you and your group pick a time to show up, and with 3 signatures you get up on the board and you're out by the time you've had breakfast or lunch and warmed up, or sooner. The days of big waits and long rounds are gone.

5. Club culture is a little on the run. Most play their golf, have a bite or a beer and then jump back into their go, go, go lifestyle. There are definately those who like to hang out all day though.

6. There is an outstanding caddie program. Yes a lot of cart play, but an equal amount of walking with a caddie going on.

7. Ladies programs are strong, juniors are less of a population than in the past, but I think that has more to do with the LA culture. Haven't seen to many new Tour Players from the LA area as evidence.

8. It's family friendly, but again golf doesn't seem to be the thing for LA kids these days.

9. Course closes the Weds before Tournament week and then is open the day after. The condition of the course on Monday was perfect and that should be the case on a consistent basis. Definately in the top 3 clubs in the area in terms of conditioning year round. That is a huge priority for the club and they back it up with the right resources. The green speeds are faster at certain times of the year than others, but they are always in healthy shape, which is saying something for a Poa surface in late summer.

10. Alternate greens on 6, 10 and 16 are used from time to time during the week during high stress periods, but it is not a constant thing. Matt Morton the GCS really tries not to screw up the members playing experience. He really wants to keep the course as enjoyable as possible . He's not a "His way or the Highway" type of guy.

Wayne, I've run out of time and I think the monetary stuff should be explored thru appropriate channels for those interested. Let's just say it certainly is more expensive now than when I joined in '87.  

Tiger - I ask as did JK when was the last time you played there, 'cause your assessment of the turf grass is dead wrong. The fairway conditions are better year round than ANY of the courses in the LA area. Muni or Private. Here's a standing offer to see for yourself.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm really lost on all this talk about the lack of short game options.  If you are going down canyon you can run the ball...if you are going up canyon you can't unless you specifically hit a top spin runner.  My best shot of the day was a 70 yd 5 iron bump and run taking advantage of a front to back/right to left sloped green going down canyon.  As it has been well documented I drove 10 green with a drive that ran an minimum of 70 yds.  It is all about spin slope and trajectory.  I'm shocked that this group wants a grass that is simple and predictable in all conditions.

[wsmorrison]

Michael,

Thank you for a comprehensive reply.  I wasn't really looking for the answers, but asking rhetorical questions.  I certainly wasn't making an inquiry into the cost of joining.  But these are issues that should be in people's minds as they consider a club.  My own personal experience is that architecture alone does not meet all one's needs, especially with a family.  It sounds like Riviera would meet almost anybody's ideals.

[Michael Robin]

Wayne -

I understood it was an exercise, your post seemed a good opportunity to clarify some things re Riviera.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

John aka Barny and Terry, if you guys like the turf at Riviera then please come play in my yard in Lafayette. Well maybe Riviera has better looking ladies in the bar and certainly on the decks in the houses around it and well for that matter in any direction you go from the club. But the golf in my yard is plenty close from a lie point of view. That grass is so close to St. Augustine it hurts. Yes it is well taken care of St Augustine. I have no doubt the staff did a great job to make it as playable as possible for the event. John I did not get 20 plus yards of roll anywhere except on the greens. I last played there in 2004.

[Kalen Braley]

Can the extra roll on the fairways at Riviera be attributed more to the fact that its been a dry and cold winter allowing the course to firm up?  While I've never played the course, it seems that it has played more wet and soggy during the Nissan.  

Perhaps it would be interesting to get an opinion on how the course plays during the non-winter months when rain is mostly non-existent in the So.Cal area.  Did we see during the Nissan how the course usually plays in the summer and fall months?

[rjsimper]

Extra roll on any surface can be attributed to abnormally dry and cold conditions...

I disagree with John K. that Kikuyu improves the ground game, however I do not view it with the same disdain that those used to Rye, Fescue, Blue, and even Bermuda often do.  

Kikuyu still presents options, they're just different...and sometimes a good shot can be rewarded with an awful fate.

Kalen - the last few years at the Nissan have been drowned in rainfall.  It's been several years since there were borderline "normal" course conditions...I think Weir's first victory (03?) was the last time it was so.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm late to this discussion because I've been traveling, but would like to clarify my position on renovations since it's been speculated on here and elsewhere.

Generally speaking, we don't take much new consulting work these days at all because we're pretty busy with new stuff.  But, I've always been reluctant to take a job where I felt the club was intent on making changes to a course I considered a true classic.  (My definition of a true classic is probably limited to about 100 courses, and does NOT include every single design by any Golden Age designer.)

We've turned down many jobs over the years.  One of them was Riviera, because I felt that the ownership wanted to make substantial changes to the course in order to attract a US Open.  However, I've remained friendly with a number of people there (both members and among the management) and my sense now is that they are much more interested in preserving the character of the course.

Our involvement with Atlantic City was a rare case where the mission from the beginning was redesign, and where I thought that was a reasonable approach for a number of reasons:  [I didn't think it was some of Flynn's best work; it had been changed several times over the years anyway; some of it was underwater; etc.]  In general, though, our approach to older courses is always to save or restore the best features of the original design first.

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