US Open with fairway width and no greenside rough

[Shane Gurnett]

Is it possible (apart from Pinehurst No. 2)? What are some other candidates?

[Philippe Binette]

could be fun at oakmont, if firm at fast, the ball would roll all over the place, too long on 1,10,12,15, who knows where it would stop

[JESII]

Shinnecock could play great if set up that way. With 50 yard wide fairways they could really be inventive with hole locations...50 yards of fairway, a few yards of rough and then the fescue...and don't cut it this time...

[Peter Pallotta]

"Shinnecock could play great if set up that way"

This was probably covered in 2004, but any ideas about why it wasn't set up that way the last time?

Thanks
Peter

[Geoffrey Childs]

Erin Hills was designed to play that way.  Its built on a grand scale with great movement in the fairways and greensites.  If they ever do hold a championship I would hope they don't narrow it down.  It would not play well at all with a typical USGA setup.

[JESII]

"Shinnecock could play great if set up that way"

This was probably covered in 2004, but any ideas about why it wasn't set up that way the last time?

Thanks
Peter

I don't think the USGA leaves the fairways for its Open courses more than 30 yards wide no matter where they are, do they?

I agree with them, and have defended their model on here more than once. At the US Open level the only way to guarantee a challenge to the player's driving is with narrow fairways. With today's driving distances and spinning irons, wedges and balls, there is no way to hide a pin from a US Open player if they are in the fairway. Hence, you are not able to test a top players driving simply by placing the hole in a corner of the green that can only be accessed from a narrow specific position in the fairway. Some people (most people) on here feel this creates boring golf, I don't disagree with that, and I think with very fortunate weather conditions Shinnecock could produce the kind of golf so many on here would love to see the top guys play. That's where the guarantee[/i] falls short...the weather.

[Peter Pallotta]

JES
you're probably right about all that. I asked because I can't think of many US Open courses that have even the potential for the kind of width Shinnecock could offer. Narrowing a fairway from 40 to 25-30 yards is understandable from the USGA's perspective; but I wonder if a 50 yard fairway might be another thing entirely, i.e. maybe "really wide" would play differently than just "wide".

Peter
(oh, Shane - sorry for taking this off track)

[JESII]

but I wonder if a 50 yard fairway might be another thing entirely, i.e. maybe "really wide" would play differently than just "wide".

If you mean to suggest that a 50 yard wide fairway might bring other challenges into the game that might be less on 30 or 40 yard fairways...I think you're right...so long as the ground is real firm, which obviously cannot be guaranteed. When you prep for real firm and get real soft your course gets killed. When you prep for soft (ie: make the course as difficult as possible from the outset) and difficult natural conditions direct you to ease up the course you have something like Shinnecock in 2004.

[Phil Benedict]

Don't you guys think it would be hard to engineer a winning score of around par with this sort of setup on most US Open venues?  And isn't that what the USGA is after?

[JESII]

Yes!

Sadly, yes. Although, to an extent, I understand why.

[James Bennett]

Sahne

judging by the comments from the NE USA guys (the wet summer golfers) it might be high risk at the NE traditional courses due to the liklihood of 'hit and stick'.  Might be more of a chance on the west coast weather wise, if the courses have the necessary width.

Wouldn't Pebble Beach be wonderful with wider fairways and no greenside rough?  A firm course should be reasonably likely in 'summer' in Monterey, shouldn't it?  Might be a few long recovery shots being played though.

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sahne

judging by the comments from the NE USA guys (the wet summer golfers) it might be high risk at the NE traditional courses due to the liklihood of 'hit and stick'.  Might be more of a chance on the west coast weather wise, if the courses have the necessary width.

Wouldn't Pebble Beach be wonderful with wider fairways and no greenside rough?  A firm course should be reasonably likely in 'summer' in Monterey, shouldn't it?  Might be a few long recovery shots being played though.

In June, the average high is 67 and the average low is 50, with those figures being a little lower during the U.S. Open dates.

In addition, fog, and the air, laden with moisture from the sea don't create the conditions you envision.[/color]

Shane,

I would Imagine that BPB, WFW and BL could be widened a good deal, but, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

As JSlonis indicated, the model is established.

Even the British Open has taken to narrowing their fairways, sometimes, considerably.

[James Bennett]

Patrick

My experience is that the critical issue for firm greens and fairways is precipitation, not temperature.  It may be that Monterey has mild summer weather, possibly with high relative humidity.  But, does it rain?  My understanding is that there is negligible rain in May and June in this area (I could be wrong, as I have only visited for the odd day in summer).  The weather forecasts certainly say that for San Francisco.

If I am right, then Monterey (and any other North Californian coastal courses) would be prime candidates for 'firm and fast'.  All that is needed is control of the pump house.  Turf shouldn't be lost to heat stress in a NorCal summer, should it?

James B

[Shane Gurnett]

What about Oakmont? The fairway bunkering looks solid enough and the small raised greens would be arguably tougher with shaved surrounds. Of course, firm greens are the key.

[Anthony Butler]

Patrick

My experience is that the critical issue for firm greens and fairways is precipitation, not temperature.  It may be that Monterey has mild summer weather, possibly with high relative humidity.  But, does it rain?  My understanding is that there is negligible rain in May and June in this area (I could be wrong, as I have only visited for the odd day in summer).  The weather forecasts certainly say that for San Francisco.

If I am right, then Monterey (and any other North Californian coastal courses) would be prime candidates for 'firm and fast'.  All that is needed is control of the pump house.  Turf shouldn't be lost to heat stress in a NorCal summer, should it?

James B

The only other candidate for the US Open in Northern CA is Olympic and if they completely cut the fairways back to that width, you would see a lot of punch out shots from the trees... For all you Tiger fans out there, you'd get to see him play his 'stinger' all the way to the green.

Of course, the reason they removed many of the trees at Olympic is to encourage the growth of rough should they get another US Open....

[Kalen Braley]

Patrick

My experience is that the critical issue for firm greens and fairways is precipitation, not temperature.  It may be that Monterey has mild summer weather, possibly with high relative humidity.  But, does it rain?  My understanding is that there is negligible rain in May and June in this area (I could be wrong, as I have only visited for the odd day in summer).  The weather forecasts certainly say that for San Francisco.

If I am right, then Monterey (and any other North Californian coastal courses) would be prime candidates for 'firm and fast'.  All that is needed is control of the pump house.  Turf shouldn't be lost to heat stress in a NorCal summer, should it?

James B

How hot it is in NorCal just all depends where you are.  If you are near the ocean, it doesn't get too hot.  But once you go inland just a bit, temps can easily get into the 100s.  This is the case in San Jose, Dublin/Pleasanton area, and the Concord area.  To note, San Fran is only a 40 minute drive from San Sose, (without traffic).

[Patrick_Mucci]

James Bennett,

While the amount of rainfall is minimal, the proximity to the ocean and the propensity for heavy fog, provides an ample amount of moisture for the golf course.  Add cooler night time temperatures, moisture in the air and dew, and it's not as dry as you'd think.

[Geoffrey Childs]

This isn't going to happen but I was talking with George Bahto this morning about Old MacDonald in Bandon and telling him that I wished they would put in a set of tees at 7300 or more yards if only for very occasional play.  

Now that place is going to be big and bold.  It will be wide and have WIND.  

I'd love to see the best players under those conditions and with the old strategies and templates at their best.

[Alex_Wyatt]

The demise of strategy for the professional emanates from the ball and the distance it travels.  What Ernie Els and others have decried is that they just get up there, hit it as far as they physically can and know that even if they miss the fairway, its still just a wedge to the green.  A pro tournament with width is a lovely idea, but it only makes sense if the inevitable bombs away fest that would create were countered by two things...length and lots and lots of central hazards.   Shinny is too short to be set up the way you are proposing.  They would shoot insane numbers because every approach would be a wedge from fairway.

[ed_getka]

James,
   Patrick is right about the moisture in summer. Bob Huntley could answer this best, but in general the fall is the most glorious weather with the least fog/moisture, at least up here in the Bay Area.
   See you next month.

[James Bennett]

James,
   Patrick is right about the moisture in summer. Bob Huntley could answer this best, but in general the fall is the most glorious weather with the least fog/moisture, at least up here in the Bay Area.
   See you next month.

Ed

its this month now!

I now from experience how quickly the coastal cool summer disappears as one heads west from the NorCal coast - I drove from San Fran to Yosemite in July, and also drove down the Big Sur coast during another July.

What I can't believe is that courses could be anything but firm and fast if the monthly rainfall is a few mm, a few points.  It may well be wet (because of the fog/mist not allowing the course to dry out) but I would bet that occurs because of irrigation in Autumn softening the fairways, and so staying soft despite the lack of rain.

Perhaps Bob Huntley could comment on the overnight irrigation practices at Monterey during these 'moist summers'.

James B

ps  Anthony Butler brought up an interesting point here citing Olympic Lake as an example - where will the crowd go if the fairways were cut wide?