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Dan_Lucas

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Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« on: February 16, 2007, 09:04:33 AM »
My GCSAA Newsweekly led with this quote. Did he have it pegged or what?

"American architecture allows practically no option as to where the drive shall go.
Now, let me ask you what manner of golfer will be developed by courses of this
nature? The answer is a mechanical shot producer with little initiative and less
judgment, and ability only to play the shot as prescribed." -- Bobby Jones

KBanks

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Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2007, 09:53:12 AM »
Bob Jones in a 1967 letter to Charles Price:

"....the Augusta National Golf Club was conceived by Cliff Roberts and me together, and was not, in the beginning, intended to be the site of any sort of tournament. All this is fully explained in my book Golf Is My Game. The main idea was to bring to inland Georgia the closest possible approximation to British seaside golf. It was intended to be an expression of my ideals in golf course design and as a service to the game of golf in general. Generally speaking, it was an effort to get away from the small green, well watered, which had reduced American golf to target practice."






Peter Pallotta

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2007, 05:35:07 PM »
I didn't want this to fall off the first page already. I'm more and more impressed by Bobby Jones every day.

It's very interesting that the best competitive golfer of his day talked about "target golf" in those terms.

Peter
Ken, Dan - thanks for posting those quotes.  
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 06:55:11 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2007, 09:02:16 PM »
I wonder if any of the ANGC members read this stuff?

If Jones could come back and see ANGC it would be interesting if;

1) he threw Hootie and the Masters officials out of the club.

2) who would he choose to restore the course, (after he fired Fazio).

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2007, 09:13:08 PM »
Do you think Fazio free-wheeled the work he has done there? Or do you think maybe he enacted the clubs requests?

Along similar lines...do you really think that if the mandate came down to recreate exactly what was on the ground 20 or 50 or 70 years ago he couldn't do it?

ed_getka

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Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2007, 09:22:14 PM »
JES,
   I'm sure Fazio could do it if asked. On the other hand sometimes you just have to turn down work that takes a course in a direction that isn't in it's best interest. I'm not saying that Augusta is being ruined, but I don't see that it is being improved. So sooner or later it's going to end up looking like those women who have had too much plastic surgery IMO.

Dan,
   Nice to see you posting. I hope the cabin fever isn't getting to be too much.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 09:35:13 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

TEPaul

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2007, 09:58:23 PM »
Jeesus---I've never seen those quotes before.

They're amazing. There're a whole lot of prophetic quotes for the likes of us from the 1920s and 1930s from a number of people but those ones are right up there.

The longer you hang around this subject of historic golf course architecture the more you realize the adage...."the more things change the more they remain the same"....seems to be true.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 10:03:45 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2007, 10:12:54 PM »
Ed,

It seems to me the whole thing started when they switched the nines to enhance the closing nine for the tournament...ball's been rolling ever since.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2007, 10:14:58 PM »
Bob Jones in a 1967 letter to Charles Price:

"....the Augusta National Golf Club was conceived by Cliff Roberts and me together, and was not, in the beginning, intended to be the site of any sort of tournament. All this is fully explained in my book Golf Is My Game. The main idea was to bring to inland Georgia the closest possible approximation to British seaside golf. It was intended to be an expression of my ideals in golf course design and as a service to the game of golf in general. Generally speaking, it was an effort to get away from the small green, well watered, which had reduced American golf to target practice."


Ken, is it possible to post more of that letter? If you could share a little of the history of the correspondence it would be great too. You may also wish to inform some here on Charles Price / his relationship with Bob Jones.

Thanks,

Matthew
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Peter Pallotta

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2007, 10:57:15 PM »
I seem to remember that years ago any changes to Augusta were always described by the Chairman as 'in keeping with what Bobby Jones and Cliff Roberts wanted'.  A few years later, the phrase used to describe the changes became 'restoring the original shot values'.  Now the phrase they seem to use is 'keeping Augusta and the Masters at the very forefront of major championship golf'.  

Maybe I'm remembering all of this wrong, and it just seems that the Masters Committee has been steadily moving away from honoring Jones' ideals, or from even pretending that they are.

Do you think they have consciously rejected those ideals, once and for all?

It seems hard to imagine that anyone who's a member of Augusta would be the type to consciously reject anything associated with Bobby Jones -- but what other explanation is there?

Peter
 

     
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 10:58:27 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Matthew Mollica

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Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2007, 11:32:23 PM »
Peter, many would believe they have been totally true to Bob Jones' ideas.
I started a thread to that effect some time ago, which attracted no interest.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=23256;start=msg425554#msg425554

MM

« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 11:35:22 PM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Jim Nugent

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2007, 11:35:16 PM »

If Jones could come back and see ANGC it would be interesting...

2) who would he choose to restore the course, (after he fired Fazio).

Can they restore the course and keep it competitive for the Masters?  If so, how and what should they do?  

TEPaul

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2007, 07:30:31 AM »
Matthew:

When it comes to the entire evolution of ANGC the truth apparently is that Jones and Clifford Roberts probably did not see eye to eye even remotely like most everyone assumed they did. I doubt ANGC would ever want to publicize or explain that fact though.

Martin Del Vecchio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2007, 07:49:02 PM »
Can they restore the course and keep it competitive for the Masters?

Jim, I'm going to nit-pick your choice of words here.  It's not up to the course to be competitive; it's up to the competitors.

I believe that the Masters would be more compelling if the average winning score were -16 than it has been since Tiger won with that score in 2001.

Even Mickelson's win in 2004 (at -9) was compelling because he shot 31 on the back 9 on Sunday.

It seems that in the last few years, the Masters folks have tried to keep the winning score closer to par, and in the process have sucked some of the life out of Sunday afternoon.

I'm used to Tiger sucking the life out of a tournament, but I would prefer if the people in charge would leave it up to the players to perform.

Jim Nugent

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2007, 12:31:39 AM »
Martin, last year's Masters was not filled with Sunday drama.  But 2005 was great.  

You would rather see the players hitting pitching wedge into many greens, even on one par 5 and maybe two?  

Arnie crushed a drive on 18 in 1961 and had 6-iron left, when the hole was 405 yards long.  Tiger crushed a 3-wood in 2005 and had 8-iron left on the same hole, when it played at 465 yards.  

Without the changes, doesn't ANGC become floggers' heaven?  


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2007, 01:10:12 AM »
Bob Jones in a 1967 letter to Charles Price:

"....the Augusta National Golf Club was conceived by Cliff Roberts and me together, and was not, in the beginning, intended to be the site of any sort of tournament. All this is fully explained in my book Golf Is My Game. The main idea was to bring to inland Georgia the closest possible approximation to British seaside golf. It was intended to be an expression of my ideals in golf course design and as a service to the game of golf in general. Generally speaking, it was an effort to get away from the small green, well watered, which had reduced American golf to target practice."


Ken, is it possible to post more of that letter? If you could share a little of the history of the correspondence it would be great too. You may also wish to inform some here on Charles Price / his relationship with Bob Jones.

Thanks,

Matthew



A short while before Charles Price passed away I had  several telephone exchanges with him and was amazed at how close he was to the man. He mentioned several things that stay with me to this day, twenty years on. How Bob Jones had a pen stuck through a tennis ball so that his crippled hands could sign a letter. How he would light two cigarettes at once, giving a lighted one to Jones who had the greatest difficulty in using a lighter. He also made mention of the tension between Jones and Roberts  on the direction of the club and the admission of the "captains of industry." The latter was particularly annoying as Roberts had a penchant of acccepting as members, those CEO's who had some rather large pension funds for Roberts to invest and garner fees.

Roberts was not invited to Jones' funeral service.


Bob

TEPaul

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2007, 07:39:28 AM »
Dan Lucas:

The gist of Bob Jones remark in the first post is the basis of what became viewed as "penal" architecture---eg an architectural structure designed to primarily make golfers execute and not think.

I think the follow passage from one of like mind of that time makes it even clearer;

     "Unfortunately, hazards have come to be associated with an idea of penalty. That is to say, the hazards of darker color are held to stand solely in relation to the ball. This has resulted in establishing a system of course design in which hazards are used to indicate a fixed idea of what correct play should be. To enforce this requires discipline. Thus hazards, besides being informative of what correct play should be, become agents of discipline necessary to enfore it. And as discipline, if it is to effect obedience must be definite and self revealing. This system robs golf of all mystery, romance and adventure. Play becomes no more than an examination of skill. The golfer is not required to think, but merely to obey.
        "That is what Bobby Jones meant when he contrasted the golf required to play the Old Course at St Andrews with play upon the best courses in America. "I have found that most of our courses....may be played correctly the same way round after round." It is the rigidity of the discipline that is responsible for this lack of variety."
"THE DILEMMA IN GOLF ARCHITECTURE"
(Strategy that leads vs. Penalties that punish)
Max Behr

TEPaul

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2007, 07:49:49 AM »
Dan Lucas:

And then Behr goes on in that article to explain the distinction between "direct tax" architecture and "indirect tax" architecture!

Penal architecture is essentially the former and strategic architecture is essentially the latter. The entire architectural structure and essence of the original ANGC with only 22 bunkers, unusually wide fairways and greens of various shapes and orientations was perhaps the best example extant in America of the latter---eg "indirect tax" architecture--strategic architecture that presented to the golfer a course he was supposed to think his way around with no obvious and definite and disciplined architectural "roadmap" of how to do that.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2007, 07:56:04 AM by TEPaul »

KBanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2007, 11:33:32 AM »
The quote I posted is from correspondence from Jones to Price between 1962 and 1969. I appear to have found this stuff in 1999 on a website called Golf Links to the Past. It wasn't there any longer when I checked this morning. (They now have original correspondence of Jones for sale, bound in leather, for fantastic sums).

The letters are fascinating reading, written on the letterhead of Jones' Atlanta law office. In the main they are concerned with the book Bobby Jones on Golf, a book of Jones' old instructional columns Price was editing and preparing for publication.

Aside from the quote I posted, they do not address architecture, but they are fascinating to read as one gets a bit more sense of Jones the private person. They indicate a lawyer's attention to the details of the book's production, including the accuracy of the illustrations! This despite the dismal state of Jones' health at that time.

A few more quotes:

     "I have no intention of being handicapped by modesty, false or otherwise. Indeed, I had thought a title that might be impressive would be 'Golf's Emperor Jones' or 'The Emperor Jones'. I have no desire to be confused with Eugene O' Neill's demented hero, but the title of 'Emperor' was rather freely bestowed upon me by golf writers of my own and later days."

     "I think there must be extravagance within sensible limits in order to make the story appealing; but I want especially to avoid comparisons or disparagements, either express or implied, of other golfers, professional or amateur. I especially do not like the phrase occurring more than once, 'beating the pros at their own game'. Actually, we were all playing the same game, and if I played less than they did, that should have been the concern of no one but me; presumably, I could have played more had I wanted to."

     "In particular, I do not like the line, 'and nobody with any sense could imagine,' etc. I think we should not imply that a person who might disagree with us would be an idiot."

     "Without claiming myself to be an intellectual golfer, I doubt very much that anyone who knew Harry Vardon as I did would classify Harry as an intellectual".

"...in 1930 I received the first Sullivan award from the AAU as  the country's outstanding amateur athlete. I believe this is the only time this award has ever gone to a golfer. This of itself must have attracted some attention to the game. It was a hell of a big dinner anyway."

The letters suggest very strongly the core of competitive steel Jones had, for all his sensibility.






























Adam Clayman

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Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2007, 12:04:04 PM »
One of the best threads ever!
Thanx for the quotes and philosophies.

The subtext is like the 800 lb. gorilla in the room.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Eric_Terhorst

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Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2007, 12:09:42 PM »
JES II,

In the book, "The Making of the Masters" by David Owen, the author relates in nearly 30 pages the hole-by-hole changes to ANGC that were made from the onset of design through 2002.

He says:  "Two of the most notable early alterations cost no money at all:  the ordering of the nines.  In MacKenzie's original conception, the holes were numbered as they are today.  His thinking changed in 1931, before construction began, and in the later drawings the nines were switched, so that the current first hole had become the tenth.  Several writers attributed the change to Jones, but contemporary documents make it clear that the idea was MacKenzie's....The club switched the nines again in 1934, between the first tournament and the second.  This time the reason was that the shady area near the 12th green, which lay at the lowest elevation on the property, was the last part of the course to thaw on frosty mornings.  By playing the other side first, golfers could tee off earlier. The new arrangement also made for more stirring Masters finishes, a fact that was recognized at the time."

Is this considered to be accurate?  If so, it doesn't seem to suggest that reordering the nines was the first Masters domino to fall, nor that the change would have been disapproved by MacKenzie or Jones.  In addition, many other changes related in Owen's account are reported to have been made with the leadership or approval of Jones.  I'd be interested in your--or anyone else's--comments on the accuracy of Owen's history.

Ken Banks,
The two Jones quotes deal with 1) how strategic interest is reduced by narrowing fairways to hallways, and 2) how greens are turned into bulls-eyes by poor design and maintenance practices.  The recent addition of all the trees in the driving corridors does appear to be anti-Jones.  But consider one of the changes to #16 that Owen describes:

"As the sixteenth was originally designed, the tee was situated directly beyond and to the right of the 15th green.  Players hit across a tributary of Rae's Creek to a green at the base of the steep slope below the 6th tee.  In 1947, Bobby Jones suggested moving the tee well to the left and the green well to the right, and damming the creek to create a pond between them.  The architect Robert Trent Jones executed that conception.  The result is a demanding short hole that has produced nearly as many thrilling and decisive Masters moments as the 12th."

According to Owen, members liked the original 16th, but the hole was too easy for Masters competitors, who viewed it as a "feeble imitation of the 12th, which it superficially resembled."  
But the design of the new hole appears to have been successful.  The contouring and the maintenance of the 16th green appears (I've only seen it on TV!) to result in a requirement for shotmaking of great imagination, fearlessness, and skill to bring birdie into play.  On the other hand, if the green was flattish and over-watered, it might not be such a "demanding short hole" or compelling to watch great players deal with.  It might have ended up a bulls-eye.

The point of this long-winded post is to ask:  Is change necessarily bad, or is it badly executed changes that are horrifying?  

David Stamm

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Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2007, 02:26:28 PM »
Eric, I don't think change is bad in this context if the course requires it out of sheer need, ie, changing land characteristics (land slides, flooding and the like), encroachment by the city it's in (See SFGC) and even possible mistakes by the original architect due to lack of foresight.

So my long winded answer is, it is badly executed changes that are horrifying. Ignorant green committees and architects that just have to leave their personal imprint on an otherwise perfectly fine course would be just some of my personal definitions of those types of changes.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

BCrosby

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Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2007, 06:06:42 PM »
The ideas Jones articulates above did not appear out of nowhere. There is a history of ideas that links up Jones, Behr, MacK and some others during the Golden Age. You get the sense that they thought they were allies on a mission.

It's hard to prove that. It requires some speculative leaps. Which is always risky. These guys were not academics or intellectuals or lawyers, so they didn't cite references or provide footnotes. But it is hard to avoid the conclusion that they talked to each other and that they saw themselves as partners trying to take golf to a different, better place by taking golf architecture to a different, better place.

If my hunch is right, there's never been anything quite like it. The best player, the best architect and the most radical thinker of their time all trying to effect (roughly) the same kind of changes. I think it is the real story of the Golden Age.

Bob    
 

Peter Pallotta

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2007, 07:23:10 PM »
Bob
thanks - a very good and interesting summary.

It seems to me, though, that there was at least one intellectual among them, and the very epitome of the intellectual at that: Max Behr.

I've only recently started reading him/about him. Did he ever mention either Jones or MacKenzie in his writings, generally and/or in the context you describe?

Thanks
Peter

TEPaul

Re:Bobby Jones - Prophet?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2007, 08:59:10 PM »
Peter:

Behr mentioned Jones a number of times in his articles. Read post #16 for an example.

I don't know whether you realize it but Behr was a helluva player himself. Had it not been for Travers Behr's career record would have been pretty impressive.

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