[Phil Benedict]

To what extent did the condition of the greens contribute to the high scoring at Winged Foot?  The players really bitched about the poa annua and pace of the greens, but I've never seen any stats on whether this actually affected putting stats that week.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil B:

The issue for many players at WF / West during last year's Open was the demands placed upon them to recover. Those who were short-sided often faced extremely risky plays -- sometimes the bold play succeeded -- more often it resulted in even more lost strokes.

To his amazing credit the up'n down that Oglivy made at the 72nd hole is far more demanding than what TV showed.

[Phil Benedict]

Matt,

Thanks for your response.  With the possible exception of Pinehurst, where they don't have rough around the greens, most US Open set ups are similar in terms of green speeds, rough height, and fairway width.  Yet Winged Foot has produced winning scores of +7 and +5.  This must reflect the underlying architecture which has nothing to do with the USGA and how it sets up a course for the Open.

It's interesting when the underlying architecture comes through at the Open venues.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

I good friend of mine who travels with me extensively said it best about golf courses that have some real fire in them by saying this ...

"How tough is it to get near the pin?"

At WF / West there are few holes where you have the green light to fire away. Yes, the par-5 5th was likely one of the easiest holes on the course. However, once you got beyond the 12th hole -- the rigors of the course begin to mount and mount.

You have pear-shaped greens that fall in different ways but usually from back to front. Miss to the sides and you PRAY your ball finds a bunker.

The same holds true at Oakmont.

Think of it this way -- out of 72 total holes you have roughly no more than at best 20 possible birdie opportunities that are no more than 50 / 50 in terms of pushing hard for that result. The rest of the time you are fighting to stay afloat -- it also works against the world's best because far too often being under-par means a round of 65 or 66 in that neighborhood. The mindset of gearing down can be quite impossible for those whose egos say they can fire away with impunity.

WF / West doesn't yield such scores because the pressure of failing is often only one tee shot or approach away. Just ask Phil.

[PThomas]

the last Open there featured brutal heat and humidity....perhaps some of you who compete in 72 hole tournaments can tell us how much of an effect that has on your game

someone mentioned Goosen's putting down the stretch at Shinny....didn't he make 5 one putts in a row on the back nine?  certainly one of the greatest clutch putting performances ever

[George Pazin]

It will be truly interesting to see if the lack of trees has the effect some seem to think it will. As JohnV said, that is probably going to depend on the weather. I think the firm greens at Oakmont will more than offset the lack of trees.

Rumor has it that Vijay played it last summer and said it was the hardest golf course in the world.

Having said all that, who really cares if Oakmont plays "as tough" as Winged Foot, other than a few (possibly twisted ) members?

P.S. I think it's more than a little unfair to call Goosen's play at Shinney lucky! I'd say them's fightin' words, Terry - but I have no idea how big you are!!

 

[Peter Pallotta]

"I'd say them's fightin' words, Terry - but I have no idea how big you are!!"

That's funny, George!

Reminds me of the line Abraham Lincoln was supposed to have said, after hearing some encouraging news from the war front:

"I feel so good I'd like to find a much shorter man, and whip him"

Peter

[Jim Sweeney]

Paul:

High heat and humidity enervates even the most fit players over 4 rounds.

Smart players pound water for several days before the tournament and sip continuously during the event. They eat light, drink no alcohol, and get plenty of sleep. They walk at an even pace and control their emotions. They are careful to not overwork in practice sessions.

To sum up- when high heat and humidity are forecast, the key word is "pace."

[Phil McDade]

Matt,

Thanks for your response.  With the possible exception of Pinehurst, where they don't have rough around the greens, most US Open set ups are similar in terms of green speeds, rough height, and fairway width.  Yet Winged Foot has produced winning scores of +7 and +5.  This must reflect the underlying architecture which has nothing to do with the USGA and how it sets up a course for the Open.

It's interesting when the underlying architecture comes through at the Open venues.

Phil:

Davis Love III ripped apart WF to the tune of -11 at the '97 PGA, pre-ProV-1 and other technology improvements. Didn't see much underlying architecture coming through then.

Set-up for the Open, and prior weeks' weather conditions, would seem to be a factor.

[Jim Nugent]

It really depends on the weather.  If it stays dry and the wind blows it could be incredibly tough.  A lot of rain before the championship and no wind and it could be a lot easier, although the rough would be thicker then.

And when Miller shot 63, I'm pretty sure the course had taken lots of rain the night before.  Softened it up, making it much more ripe for the killing.  Still remarkable round, of course.

someone mentioned Goosen's putting down the stretch at Shinny....didn't he make 5 one putts in a row on the back nine?  certainly one of the greatest clutch putting performances ever.  

Best clutch putting I've ever seen.  Supernatural seems like a better way to describe it.  

[cary lichtenstein]

The better question is whether it will bring out the best player or just the survivor like at Shinnecock?

[Phil McDade]

It really depends on the weather.  If it stays dry and the wind blows it could be incredibly tough.  A lot of rain before the championship and no wind and it could be a lot easier, although the rough would be thicker then.

And when Miller shot 63, I'm pretty sure the course had taken lots of rain the night before.  Softened it up, making it much more ripe for the killing.  Still remarkable round, of course.

someone mentioned Goosen's putting down the stretch at Shinny....didn't he make 5 one putts in a row on the back nine?  certainly one of the greatest clutch putting performances ever.  

Best clutch putting I've ever seen.  Supernatural seems like a better way to describe it.  

Miller shot 63, Lanny Wadkins (only two years removed from playing in the US Open as an amateur) shot 65, Nicklaus and another guy shot 68, and no one else broke 70 that day. Miller's 63 is said to have resulted directly in the famed '74 set-up, the Massacre at Winged Foot. Irwin's 7 over is the highest winning score (relative to par) in the US Open since that one.

[Jim Sweeney]

Jim Nugent- You are right about the rain at Oakmont and Miler's 63. They still played the ball down.

Cary- The Open will determine the national champion for '07, and if history serves, he will be if not the best player, one of the best players. Regardless, the winner will be the best player that week.

[Matt_Ward]

Simply check the roster of champions that Oakmont has crowned in all the big time events played there. Very few weak names there.

[Guy Phelan]

Oakmont is the second toughest U.S. Open test, right behind Winged Foot...Depending on the hole locations for Thursday and Friday, it could prove to be even harder...some of those locations can make putting the most defensive of any U.S. Open course, but the USGA must always get everyone around before the cut...

Here is my swipe at the ten toughest:

1. Winged Foot
2. Oakmont
3. Shinnecock
4. Oakland Hills
5. Bethpage
6. Olympic
7. Medinah
8. Oak Hill
9. Pinhurst#2
10. Brookline



 

[Phil Benedict]

Simply check the roster of champions that Oakmont has crowned in all the big time events played there. Very few weak names there.

Who could forget Sam Parks?

Sorry Matt, I just couldn't resist.  Otherwise I think your point is spot on.

[Jim Sweeney]

Sam PArks was a golf god.

[Gene Greco]

   I played Oakmont on a hot July afternoon post tree removal and came to this conclusion:

Oakmont is a masterpiece.

I have defended its rightful place as an equal to Pebble with regard to the ongoing Huckaby-Pazin debate (which must seem incredible to my good friend Mr. Huckaby) but Oakmont is that good and better in some respects. I wouldn't be able to pick between the two as to which is "greater." Heck, like everyone else I'm in love with Merion - the Scarlet Johanson, sexiest of all golf courses - and wouldn't be able to pick between it and formidable Oakmont.

I've also played Winged Foot every Anderson Sunday for seven years, not as a competitor as Mucci and others would quickly surmise, but as a guest with Southside in hand.

Believe it or not the Open left ALOT of gas in the tank with regard to greens set up and speed compared to Anderson Sunday at WF and normal everyday set up for member play as well. The pins are tougher for the membership and MUCH tougher for the Anderson than they were for the Open.

All things considered, over the course of 72 holes of Open play, (IMHO) WF would yield a higher winning score than Oakmont everytime. Over the course of 72 holes of the toughest realistically playable set ups for each course, which, again, incredibly MAY not be an Open set up, Winged Foot I believe becomes exponentially harder.

Therefore, Oakmont will NOT play as tough as WF.

Furthermore, for those who haven't played the courses, for everyday play sans Open rough, playing either course is a most enjoyable exercise and not the drudgery that one might presume from TV viewing during a US Open.

[JohnV]

Simply check the roster of champions that Oakmont has crowned in all the big time events played there. Very few weak names there.

Who could forget Sam Parks?

Sorry Matt, I just couldn't resist.  Otherwise I think your point is spot on.

Sam Parks was the best player in Pittsburgh at the time.  He was the head pro at South Hills CC, but he came over to Oakmont and played and practiced there almost every day for months leading up to the US Open.

While his victory was a surprise, he understood the course better than anyone else.

[Jay Flemma]

So which Oakmont will show up?  The one that surrendered 63 in '73?  The one that surrendered 65-67 to Nelson of all people...the unlikeliest of winners? Will it play -5 like in '94 and -4 like '84?  or will it get tricked up to even or +1?

[nandoal]

I've played Oakmont each of the past two years at the end of the season.  The thing that I walked away from there was that once you are on the green the adventure begins.  I'm a very good putter, so once I'm on most greens you can say two putts at most and see ya on the next tee.  But there it is unreal.  I may have struck the ball there as good as I have in years.  Putting for birdie and par all day.  The course doesn't have many tricks off the tee.  Everything is right there in front of you.  But the greens WILL be the difference.  I can't wait!  And boy I can't wait for the ten minute drive to Oakmont from my house.  

[Matt_Ward]

The issue for me is that WF / West is clearly the tougher of the two courses -- not by a lot mind you but enough.

However ...

From the standpoint of what course has the better architecture -- the greater diversity of holes / routing / terrain -- I go with Oakmont.

We are most fortunate this year with the site of the majors --save for the silliness the folks in Georgia have done to that masterpiece.

Oakmont is rarely elevated on this site as it sits between those in the midwest and the horde of contributors from the far northeast.

I've said this before -- I've played my share of courses and the western PA course would easily make my personal top ten and with due consideration even a top five placement.

The removal of the trees has only brought to the surface the considerable elements that lie at the heart of its overall greatness.

P.S. Yes, good-ole Sam Parks !!! However, the rest of the name are not too shabby.

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