next »

[Mike_Young]

I think courses discussed on this website probably care about ratings but the 16800 clubs left out there only care about making it work.....if they think a rating will help that goal then yes they care...but I don't think most do.

[Tim Copeland]

Which rankings do they care about??

There seems to be about 20 different "rankings"

[Doug Ralston]

Four courses in the 'Signature Series' have been ranked by GD. They place the rankings on the site. In Kentucky, such a ranking is gold. Courses few even knew about suddenly get 'a play', and viola! Those courses were big money losers at first ..... now they are making cash! Thanks to Golf Digest. Ranking = publicity = $$$.

On the other hand; the Honors Course in Ootlewah, TN is probably one of the least interested clubs. They want to be 'exclusive' and prefer no one notice them at all, I think. An upscale Private like that has 'other priorities'.

Doug

Doug

[Kevin Pallier]

Interesting question and I believe it depends on a combination of the makeup of the club and the type of course in question.

I qualify my post from an angle by mentioning that I am a rater for a number of different golfing publications. Many committee / club members read rankings and actively talk about them to me others don't seem as interested - everyone is different.

Two private access courses in Australia openly choose not to be ranked though they have participated in such rankings systems in the past. Some private access committee members that I have come across in my time as a rater are passionate about them and some others have been ambivalent. I suppose it also could be a factor as to whether they use them or not ?

Many public access / resort courses seem to use rankings primarily as marketing tools in an attempt to garner play from the public. I would also suggest some private access clubs use them as marketing tools in the interests of selling memberships. Those associated with housing estates also use them to try and sell houses. Each is to their own.

[Bob_Huntley]

I wonder if Jasper Johns, Picasso, Monet and others in the Pantheon  gave a fiddlers twist where they were ranked?

How on earth can one decide a rating between a Bach Cantata, a Mozart Opera or a Beethoven late String Quartet?

I think the whole rating or ranking business is fraught with imprecise measurements and sometimes with pre-conceived notions of what is expected.

I say a pox on all rankings of golf courses. Play the goddammed courses and enjoythe game for what it is, a game of golf.


Bob

[Anthony Butler]

I think I have something to offer here. I make records (music). One of the albums I made (long ago) is often rated in 'Top 100' lists, sometimes higher than othertimes, and sometimes it has fallen under the ranking radar.. Like Tom, I'm, not sure that this record is necessarily my best record.. and do care? Well.. one knows that the criteria involved and the rating is imprecise and fickle.. but as Wilde said 'The only thing worse than being talked about is not being taked about' or was that Whistler??

Lloyd, there's very little you can do to improve the ranking of your record once it has been released... it's all up to the personal likes and dislikes of the raters.

A golf course on the other hand...

I would agree with Shane's point, courses like Barnbougle, Kidnappers, St. Andrews, Moonah National etc have entered the national and international rankings at a high places after perhaps 40 years in which no new course cracked the Top 10 in Australia. Tom and others have literally put the cat amongst the pigeons and some of the clubs affected are no longer thinking with their rational minds, hence the odd RFP forwarded to Tom Doak. (If he names the state, I will take a crack at the course. )

In my own industry (advertising) you see this kind of thing often... a company will come out with a campaign and it moves the needle with consumers, and the competition will turn themselves inside out trying to match this... sometimes at the risk of destroying the brand equity they have already built up...

So far the rankings have been kind to my course for the last decade, but the club is still doing what it can to address some problems that have cropped in some mostly laudatory reviews published over the years. It seems more likely that rational improvements would be made to a course during this period, rather than when the raters are preferring the sexy blonde on the coast...

[Dan Kelly]

I say a pox on all rankings of golf courses. Play the goddammed courses and enjoy the game for what it is, a game of golf.

To quote a great American, Gabby Johnson, and his "authentic frontier gibberish": Rarrrughhhh!

[John Kavanaugh]

Lloyd, there's very little you can do to improve the ranking of your record once it has been released... it's all up to the personal likes and dislikes of the raters.

It never hurts to swallow the barrel of a shotgun..

[Anthony Butler]

I would also suggest some private access clubs use them as marketing tools in the interests of selling memberships.

If you are referring to the five private clubs in Australia ranked in the top 100 in the world, the average time on the waiting list is approximately 12 years, so there is very little immediate effect on the membership. It does quite a lot for the amount you can charge for renting the course out once a week. I would imagine most UK and US Top 100 clubs that take this kind of business are in a fairly similar situation.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I wonder if Jasper Johns, Picasso, Monet and others in the Pantheon  gave a fiddlers twist where they were ranked?

How on earth can one decide a rating between a Bach Cantata, a Mozart Opera or a Beethoven late String Quartet?

I think the whole rating or ranking business is fraught with imprecise measurements and sometimes with pre-conceived notions of what is expected.

I say a pox on all rankings of golf courses. Play the goddammed courses and enjoythe game for what it is, a game of golf.


Bob

I don't go back that far, but was reading a Lennon bio, and he said they were always concerned with what the Stones were doing et al.  

Rankings are like mountain climbing, where they climb it because "its there."  Since they are there, everyone would prefer to be on them than not.

I would say the typical offical version is that they "are above the fray." Unofficially they live and die with them.

Of course, its easier to influence a few hundred raters than the record industry influencing millions of teenagers to buy records.  Courses have tried to wine and dine the fewer numbers of raters, and make changes based on what they think the raters like.

However, each club is different, and is also made up of hundreds of individuals.  Its hard to speak for all of them on one thread......

[Joe Hancock]

.. but as Wilde said 'The only thing worse than being talked about is not being taked about' or was that Whistler??

According to Monty Python, I think Wilde also said "Your Majesty is like a big jam doughnut with creme on top"....or was that Whistler?

Joe

[Anthony Butler]

Lloyd, there's very little you can do to improve the ranking of your record once it has been released... it's all up to the personal likes and dislikes of the raters.

It never hurts to swallow the barrel of a shotgun..

Nice, John...  so that's where you go to after the Mets put 12 on your precious Cardinals...

In terms of golf rankings, are you saying that once a few of our favorite architects sshuffle off this mortal coil Top 10 status awaits?

[John Kavanaugh]

Anthony,

I've been there before and don't dare go again.

[RJ_Daley]

Here here, oh wise sage of the pennisula.

I find it interesting that two artists, Doak and Cole have noodled around with this issue to the limitted extent that they have posted thoughts here.  But, I would really like to see these two artists, and other artists at the peak of their endeavors have a lengthy and thoughtful discussion on this subject; who cares about rankings and to what end?

Without question, both these gents here wish to make a living and need to sell their talent to a market of people that range from those that like there stuff because they just like it, to those that know their fields of play (music and game) in depth, and choose to buy, or praise their work as critical acclaim.  

But I suspect that they, as the artists who produce the medium that we enjoy, have a far different take or value to be placed on rankings of their respective crafts than the owners  or memberships of the golf courses (private or public) or the labels of record companies.  Truly, the commercial side of the equation will always be more willing to tamper with the original art to remodel (or re-mix or re-master)for the sake of making the art more palatable, playable, or in sinc with the current technology, taste, or conditions of the market.

Doing some digital work to make a piece more marketable (I'm way over my head in music biz tech and terminology here) to enhance, boost, alter to current musical palate on the instrumentality/sound side is one thing... but what if something was done to alter Mr. Cole's lyrics?      What if the words were altered in tone, inflection, pronuciation, etc., to reflect a newer and trendy culture or vernacular?  That would be wholesale rape, IMHO.

And so that might be similar with alterations of golf designs to gain new market, I think.  If present day archie goes to a classic, highly acclaimed/ historically respected course to boost the tonal, instumentality quality of a course (clear overgrown corridors, bring out green edges, redo bunker edges and drainage, etc) to make it more relavant to play within means of new tech maintenance equip and new grasses - to play as good and better than the original in a tech sense, without destroying the character and soul of a course, that might be something like they are discussing with re-mixing and all that.  

But, if an archie goes to change bunker positions or eliminate or add some, lengthen tees greatly, soften greens, etc., that is like changing the lyrics, it seems to me.  

If clubs care that much about rankings, because it is a commercial pursuit, that they would rape the lyrics, then rankings are driving the great evil of golf course architecture in the resto-remodel arena.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

I think I have something to offer here. I make records (music). One of the albums I made (long ago) is often rated in 'Top 100' lists, sometimes higher than othertimes, and sometimes it has fallen under the ranking radar.. Like Tom,

This is a great thread, it brings together Top 100 courses with my days caddying at Newport CC listening to Bob Marley at The Wharf Deli.  

Lloyd,

Please tell me this was your song/album that you produced!

----------

Play I some music: (dis a) reggae music!
Play I some music: (dis a) reggae music!
Roots, rock, reggae: dis a reggae music!
Roots, rock, reggae: dis a reggae music!

Hey, Mister Music, sure sounds good to me!
I can't refuse it: what to be got to be.
Feel like dancing, dance 'cause we are free;
Feel like dancing, come dance with me!

Roots, rock, reggae: dis a reggae music!
Roots, rock, reggae, yeah! Dis a reggae music!
Play I some music: dis a reggae music!
Play I some music: dis a reggae music!

Play I on the R&B - wo-oh! Want all my people to see:
We're bubblin' on the Top 100, just like a mighty dread!
Play I on the R&B; want all my people to see:
We bubblin' on the Top 100, just like a mighty dread!

Roots, rock, reggae: dis a reggae music! Uh-uh!
Roots, rock, reggae, ee-mi duba! Dis a reggae music!
Play I some music: (dis a reggae music!)
Play I some music: (dis a reggae music!)
---
/Saxophone solo/
(Dis a reggae music!)
(Dis a reggae music!)
---
Play I on the R&B; I want all my people to see: (doo-doo-doo-doo!)
We bubblin' on the Top 100, just like a mighty dread!
(doo-doo-doo-doo!)
Play I some music: (dis a) reggae music!
Play I some music: (dis a) reggae music!
(Dis a reggae music!)
(Dis a reggae music!)

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:  I think I am going to say the same thing Lloyd would say.  I just want to make music.  It's nice when other people like it -- raters or not -- but that's not why I make it.

That said, I think the rankings game is a bit more important in golf.  Anybody with an instrument can make music, and if they are very good at it, they can probably get a recording contract with somebody.  Maybe they won't get as much play as somebody else, but they can do their thing, and (hopefully) the market can decide if it's good.

When you're a golf course architect, you've got to have clients.  Having built some courses which are highly ranked makes a very good impression on potential future clients.

And as for your analogy regarding redesign work, I'm generally in agreement.  I'd much rather write my own music than rewrite someone else's.

[Kevin Pallier]

I would also suggest some private access clubs use them as marketing tools in the interests of selling memberships.

If you are referring to the five private clubs in Australia ranked in the top 100 in the world, the average time on the waiting list is approximately 12 years, so there is very little immediate effect on the membership. It does quite a lot for the amount you can charge for renting the course out once a week. I would imagine most UK and US Top 100 clubs that take this kind of business are in a fairly similar situation.

Anthony,

There are currently 4 private acces courses from Australia ranked in Golf Magazine's World Top100 - Barnbougle Dunes is a public access course. I also don't know why you've referred to memberships to those courses on a World scale and they aren't the courses I am referring to as we have a lot of quality private access courses here in Australia.

[Brad Klein]

Tom Doak, if I remember correctly, you used the Golf Magazine rankings and your role in them to exercise some influence and also to establish your credentials in the design world. So maybe you put some importance into them back 25 yerars ago even before some of your own courses started appearing.  

[Anthony Butler]

I would also suggest some private access clubs use them as marketing tools in the interests of selling memberships.

If you are referring to the five private clubs in Australia ranked in the top 100 in the world, the average time on the waiting list is approximately 12 years, so there is very little immediate effect on the membership. It does quite a lot for the amount you can charge for renting the course out once a week. I would imagine most UK and US Top 100 clubs that take this kind of business are in a fairly similar situation.

Anthony,

There are currently 4 private access courses from Australia ranked in Golf Magazine's World Top100 - Barnbougle Dunes is a public access course. I also don't know why you've referred to memberships to those courses on a World scale and they aren't the courses I am referring to as we have a lot of quality private access courses here in Australia.

Kevin, if you look at my avatar photo, you might deduce that I am a member of one of the 4 courses you refer to.

I'm not exactly sure which private courses are currently 'selling' memberships... the only club that has a course within co-eee of the World's Top 100 that has "sold" a membership in the last 10 years is The National. I guess you are referring to courses ranked in the lower half of Australia's Top 50 that have been opened more recently, and that is a slightly different conversation... you would have to enlighten me as to which private clubs are engaged in that activity... I imagine they are mostly in Queensland or Western Australia.

[Buck Wolter]

Critically acclaimed in the music business usually means you have a small but very dedicated group of fans obsessing over the tiniest details of your lyrics usually on some wacky blog site -- I see no comparison to Golf Course architecture.

[RJ_Daley]

Critically acclaimed in the music business usually means you have a small but very dedicated group of fans obsessing over the tiniest details of your lyrics usually on some wacky blog site -- I see no comparison to Golf Course architecture

Buck, with such music biz unSIGHT - you must be the president of the Stevie Wonder ironically sarcastic fan club...

[Doug Siebert]

Lloyd, there's very little you can do to improve the ranking of your record once it has been released... it's all up to the personal likes and dislikes of the raters.

I don't know that this is necessarily true.  Musical tastes change over time, plus there more "product" every year.  If an album is of a certain genre that gets more popular, it may go up in the all time rankings without being changed.  On the other hand, a new album is released from time to time that might muscle in at #40 or #60 and push down everything below it.

Similar to golf courses, if "green and TV perfect" lost its appeal over time, perhaps PB and ANGC might drop a few spots.  When a Sebonack is built and moves into the rankings, it causes everything below it to drop one spot through no fault of their own.

Remixing on the scale Lloyd is talking about is like extending a green to create a new pin position, or building a new tee.  What some courses do to themselves in pursuit of a higher ranking would be like Lloyd re-recording his lyrics with rap to a hip hop beat!

[Anthony Butler]

Lloyd, there's very little you can do to improve the ranking of your record once it has been released... it's all up to the personal likes and dislikes of the raters.

I don't know that this is necessarily true.  Musical tastes change over time, plus there more "product" every year.  If an album is of a certain genre that gets more popular, it may go up in the all time rankings without being changed.  On the other hand, a new album is released from time to time that might muscle in at #40 or #60 and push down everything below it.

Similar to golf courses, if "green and TV perfect" lost its appeal over time, perhaps PB and ANGC might drop a few spots.  When a Sebonack is built and moves into the rankings, it causes everything below it to drop one spot through no fault of their own.

Remixing on the scale Lloyd is talking about is like extending a green to create a new pin position, or building a new tee.  What some courses do to themselves in pursuit of a higher ranking would be like Lloyd re-recording his lyrics with rap to a hip hop beat!

Doug,

I think you're missing my point. The original release album is still around to be 'ranked' even if you release a completely new version of the album. A golf course is a living organism and the thing to be ranked is what's available for viewing at the time the rankings are made. There is no other physical manifestation of the course avaliable for evaluating. That's why Sgt.Peppers has been consistently ranked the best album even more so than Pine Valley has been rated the world's best golf course... It's unlikely that a record released in 1971 and consistently ranked below Sgt. Peppers is all of a sudden going to become a better album... only when the judging panel changes do these 'fixed' rankings show much sign of movement.

On the other hand, golf courses can get both better and worse after they are open for business. I doubt many of the world's top 50 would be there if they were maintained in exactly the same design and condition as they were when opened for play... on the other hand I don't think Paul McCartney, George Martin or anyone else has laid a finger on SPLHCB since the CD was remastered. I can't imagine such an effort would be greeted favorably, whereas the restoration or redesign of certain parts of a golf course can be regarded favourably by rankers if correctly done.

[James Bennett]

Sounds like it, from this request for proposals I just received:

"Currently, [blank] is ranked [a certain number] in Australia by the Golf Digest magazine but our desire is to improve this ranking as far as possible."

Also, earlier:

"Technology and more demanding criteria for Australian Open championship rating requires the course be updated and strengthened where possible."

Their list of potential projects includes blowing up as many as six greens to achieve these goals!  If they want to change the golf course, that's fine, but they go out of their way to say that they are trying to preserve the heritage of the existing course, when clearly they are not.

Tom,

I played that course a few weeks ago on an interstate golf trip. I was actually told that you were contacted by one of the staff.

The course in question is very pleasant & has had some bunkering re-done over the last few years, some of which is good & some of which is not.

Chasing rankings is like a dog chasing its tail.

Tom, Andrew

I played at the course today.  In Adelaide.  They have recently (notice dated 17 February 2007) engaged Hawtree to do a course review.  They have not appointed Hawtree as course architect at this stage.

James B