[Tom_Doak]

RJ:  I think I am going to say the same thing Lloyd would say.  I just want to make music.  It's nice when other people like it -- raters or not -- but that's not why I make it.

That said, I think the rankings game is a bit more important in golf.  Anybody with an instrument can make music, and if they are very good at it, they can probably get a recording contract with somebody.  Maybe they won't get as much play as somebody else, but they can do their thing, and (hopefully) the market can decide if it's good.

When you're a golf course architect, you've got to have clients.  Having built some courses which are highly ranked makes a very good impression on potential future clients.

And as for your analogy regarding redesign work, I'm generally in agreement.  I'd much rather write my own music than rewrite someone else's.

[Kevin Pallier]

I would also suggest some private access clubs use them as marketing tools in the interests of selling memberships.

If you are referring to the five private clubs in Australia ranked in the top 100 in the world, the average time on the waiting list is approximately 12 years, so there is very little immediate effect on the membership. It does quite a lot for the amount you can charge for renting the course out once a week. I would imagine most UK and US Top 100 clubs that take this kind of business are in a fairly similar situation.

Anthony,

There are currently 4 private acces courses from Australia ranked in Golf Magazine's World Top100 - Barnbougle Dunes is a public access course. I also don't know why you've referred to memberships to those courses on a World scale and they aren't the courses I am referring to as we have a lot of quality private access courses here in Australia.

[Brad Klein]

Tom Doak, if I remember correctly, you used the Golf Magazine rankings and your role in them to exercise some influence and also to establish your credentials in the design world. So maybe you put some importance into them back 25 yerars ago even before some of your own courses started appearing.  

[Anthony Butler]

I would also suggest some private access clubs use them as marketing tools in the interests of selling memberships.

If you are referring to the five private clubs in Australia ranked in the top 100 in the world, the average time on the waiting list is approximately 12 years, so there is very little immediate effect on the membership. It does quite a lot for the amount you can charge for renting the course out once a week. I would imagine most UK and US Top 100 clubs that take this kind of business are in a fairly similar situation.

Anthony,

There are currently 4 private access courses from Australia ranked in Golf Magazine's World Top100 - Barnbougle Dunes is a public access course. I also don't know why you've referred to memberships to those courses on a World scale and they aren't the courses I am referring to as we have a lot of quality private access courses here in Australia.

Kevin, if you look at my avatar photo, you might deduce that I am a member of one of the 4 courses you refer to.

I'm not exactly sure which private courses are currently 'selling' memberships... the only club that has a course within co-eee of the World's Top 100 that has "sold" a membership in the last 10 years is The National. I guess you are referring to courses ranked in the lower half of Australia's Top 50 that have been opened more recently, and that is a slightly different conversation... you would have to enlighten me as to which private clubs are engaged in that activity... I imagine they are mostly in Queensland or Western Australia.

[Buck Wolter]

Critically acclaimed in the music business usually means you have a small but very dedicated group of fans obsessing over the tiniest details of your lyrics usually on some wacky blog site -- I see no comparison to Golf Course architecture.

[RJ_Daley]

Critically acclaimed in the music business usually means you have a small but very dedicated group of fans obsessing over the tiniest details of your lyrics usually on some wacky blog site -- I see no comparison to Golf Course architecture

Buck, with such music biz unSIGHT - you must be the president of the Stevie Wonder ironically sarcastic fan club...

[Doug Siebert]

Lloyd, there's very little you can do to improve the ranking of your record once it has been released... it's all up to the personal likes and dislikes of the raters.

I don't know that this is necessarily true.  Musical tastes change over time, plus there more "product" every year.  If an album is of a certain genre that gets more popular, it may go up in the all time rankings without being changed.  On the other hand, a new album is released from time to time that might muscle in at #40 or #60 and push down everything below it.

Similar to golf courses, if "green and TV perfect" lost its appeal over time, perhaps PB and ANGC might drop a few spots.  When a Sebonack is built and moves into the rankings, it causes everything below it to drop one spot through no fault of their own.

Remixing on the scale Lloyd is talking about is like extending a green to create a new pin position, or building a new tee.  What some courses do to themselves in pursuit of a higher ranking would be like Lloyd re-recording his lyrics with rap to a hip hop beat!

[Anthony Butler]

Lloyd, there's very little you can do to improve the ranking of your record once it has been released... it's all up to the personal likes and dislikes of the raters.

I don't know that this is necessarily true.  Musical tastes change over time, plus there more "product" every year.  If an album is of a certain genre that gets more popular, it may go up in the all time rankings without being changed.  On the other hand, a new album is released from time to time that might muscle in at #40 or #60 and push down everything below it.

Similar to golf courses, if "green and TV perfect" lost its appeal over time, perhaps PB and ANGC might drop a few spots.  When a Sebonack is built and moves into the rankings, it causes everything below it to drop one spot through no fault of their own.

Remixing on the scale Lloyd is talking about is like extending a green to create a new pin position, or building a new tee.  What some courses do to themselves in pursuit of a higher ranking would be like Lloyd re-recording his lyrics with rap to a hip hop beat!

Doug,

I think you're missing my point. The original release album is still around to be 'ranked' even if you release a completely new version of the album. A golf course is a living organism and the thing to be ranked is what's available for viewing at the time the rankings are made. There is no other physical manifestation of the course avaliable for evaluating. That's why Sgt.Peppers has been consistently ranked the best album even more so than Pine Valley has been rated the world's best golf course... It's unlikely that a record released in 1971 and consistently ranked below Sgt. Peppers is all of a sudden going to become a better album... only when the judging panel changes do these 'fixed' rankings show much sign of movement.

On the other hand, golf courses can get both better and worse after they are open for business. I doubt many of the world's top 50 would be there if they were maintained in exactly the same design and condition as they were when opened for play... on the other hand I don't think Paul McCartney, George Martin or anyone else has laid a finger on SPLHCB since the CD was remastered. I can't imagine such an effort would be greeted favorably, whereas the restoration or redesign of certain parts of a golf course can be regarded favourably by rankers if correctly done.

[James Bennett]

Sounds like it, from this request for proposals I just received:

"Currently, [blank] is ranked [a certain number] in Australia by the Golf Digest magazine but our desire is to improve this ranking as far as possible."

Also, earlier:

"Technology and more demanding criteria for Australian Open championship rating requires the course be updated and strengthened where possible."

Their list of potential projects includes blowing up as many as six greens to achieve these goals!  If they want to change the golf course, that's fine, but they go out of their way to say that they are trying to preserve the heritage of the existing course, when clearly they are not.

Tom,

I played that course a few weeks ago on an interstate golf trip. I was actually told that you were contacted by one of the staff.

The course in question is very pleasant & has had some bunkering re-done over the last few years, some of which is good & some of which is not.

Chasing rankings is like a dog chasing its tail.

Tom, Andrew

I played at the course today.  In Adelaide.  They have recently (notice dated 17 February 2007) engaged Hawtree to do a course review.  They have not appointed Hawtree as course architect at this stage.

James B

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