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[Lloyd_Cole]

I know this should really be on Bomb Squad, but I can't bear to interact with those guys anymore. I'm an occasional lurker at best these days.
I know some of you'all can play so here are my questions? And yes, I am working on a new '07 bag.
Is the modern ball any worse with a Persimmon diver? Is there a particular ball that is better with persimmon?
Has there been any Iron Byron type scientific testing of the distance loss from the choke down? Butch Harmon says choke down an inch and add one club. I've always thought something like that, but I have no real basis for my decisions. Do any of you folk have a system that works for you?

[Michael Moore]

Mr. Cole -

Can you clarify your question "Is the modern ball any worse with a persimmon driver?" In the meantime, here are my thoughts.

I have read theories about how persimmon clubs can achieve optimized performance with older golf balls. This is total nonsense. The best ball for persimmon is the good old Titleist Pro-V1x, which goes very very far on a good hit, and whose construction helps counteract the extra spin that can sometimes be conveyed by the wood.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Mr. Cole -

Can you clarify your question "Is the modern ball any worse with a persimmon driver?"

Michael
Thanks for your thoughts. I am already encouraged.
To clarify - I guess I mean - Any worse than the balls that were around when these clubs were being made. Which is 10 years ago and counting. Is the pro V-1 significantly problematic compared with, say, a Tour 90? You seem to suggest otherwise.

[Doug Siebert]

Lloyd,

Every few years I drag out my old persimmon driver just for the heck of it and play with it alongside whatever I'm playing at the time (or with two other clubs; the driver being replaced and a new driver replacing it)  When I really hit it on the screws with my usual Pro V1x, it goes pretty much the same distance.  But I have to put a lot more effort into the swing for good results.  Considering my current driver has a 58g shaft and my old persimmon has a nice heavy Dynamic Gold X100 shaft tipped 1.5" that's not really surprising!  Soon enough I won't be able to do that anymore because at some point age has to start catching up to me and making me too weak to swing that thing effectively.

Needless to say, the majority of my shots with the persimmon go much shorter than with my current driver.  Somehow that head doesn't seem nearly as big as it used to now that I swing a 400cc driver.  You forget how easy it was with persimmon to undercut a ball and get a nice 180y drive with the trajectory of a PW, or heel one that flies head high about 160y before burying itself in the left rough.  Nevermind the perfect drives, those 450+ yard par 4s are still playable after a bad drive with a modern driver, but they are an instant three shotter after a bad drive with persimmon.

As for the choke down, I'd say 1" and one club is probably a bit too much.  Maybe that's close for pros who hit everything perfect or nearly so every time.  But for us amateurs, we might just hit a choked down club a bit more solidly and counteract some of the shorter shaft.  Choking down is good for mechanical players (the kind of people who like the Pelz wedge system) but since I'm more of a feel player I prefer to make those kind of adjustments by just swinging a bit slower and/or shorter with a normal grip.

[ForkaB]

Lloyd

As you know, I spend most of my time on the Cream Puff Squad site (Motto:  "Swing it slow and hit it high....").

Like Doug I get the Persimmon's out occasionally, but usually the Orlimar.  A few days ago I pulled an old McGregor out the the bags, one whose head looked like a goiter when I tried to play it 15-20 years ago, but now looks like a squash ball.  I could rarely hit it in ye olden days, but when I did it had an amazingly powerful and low boring trajectory that went 20-30 yards past the Orlimar when conditions were firm and fast.  I might try it out this summer.....

As for balls, I do know that balatas will go as far as Pro V1's hit with modern drivers (unless your swing speed is in the top 3-5% of golfers).  As for the reverse, who knows?

[wsmorrison]

I take out my set of persimmon Izetts every year for a little while.  The driver is the size of my 7-wood today and while I can pure one as far as any club I hit today, the ratio of good hits to bad is very poor.  However, my 3 and 5 woods still have some magic in them.  My brother came to visit without his clubs.  He used my Hogan blades, Ping G2 driver and Izett metal woods.  I used a set of Ram tour blades and my persimmons.  I soon shared the Hogans and the driver with my brother but I kept using the persimmon fairway woods.  They were sweet!  Maybe I'll regrip them early this year and keep them out a bit longer.

The Pro V1x were just fine with the persimmons.  Ahhh, the sound of persimmons is sadly gone for most of us---not Mr. Moore.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Could any of you explain to me how a 43.5 inch driver manages to hit the same ball the same distance as a 46 inch driver ?

Or, was Archimedes wrong ?

Those claiming that the ball goes just as far with a persimmon wood (43.5) as with the modern drivers (46) need to revisit their testing methods, or, buy new equipment.

At a later date, I'll bring up the strength to weight factors between persimmon and titanium.

[Anthony Pioppi]

Pat,

Archimedes played golf?

I learn so much on this site.

Anthony

[Michael Moore]

Could any of you explain to me how a 43.5 inch driver manages to hit the same ball the same distance as a 46 inch driver ?

Why do you put forth nonsensical propositions such as shaft length corresponds to clubhead material?

What is gained?

[Doug Sobieski]

Regarding the Choke Down, you really can't speak in absolutes. For a VERY low spin player like myself, choking down decreases spin too much, and the ball won't stay in the air long enough. It helps to know your spin characteristics and how they will be effected.

I have to agree with Mr. Mucci. I would be flabbergasted if there is any person on this planet that can hit a 43.5" driver just as far as today's typical 45" or 46" driver. Rule of thumb is that 1/2" equates to approximately 2 mph in ball speed (not clubhead speed). So 2.5" is going to have approximately a 10 mph difference in ball speed. That's pretty significant. Some testing research I'm aware of, however, shows that head material doesn't produce as much ball speed difference as one might think ON CENTER FACE HITS ONLY. Some, but not much. If you move away from center, the difference for persimmon is disastrous.

[ForkaB]

Once Titleist et. al come out with those 500" Archimedes drivers, the only course that will be able to stand up to the technology will be Gulph Mills, due to the prescience of Donald Ross who planted those tee narrowing Sycamore trees so many years ago.......

[Pete Lavallee]

Archimedes played golf?

Indeed, although popular history records his last words to the Roman soldier who slayed him as "don't disturb my circles", he really said "you're standing on my line".

[Tom Huckaby]

Archimedes played golf?

Indeed, although popular history records his last words to the Roman soldier who slayed him as "don't disturb my circles", he really said "you're standing on my line".

Now THAT was great.  Post of the year, at least for us golfers / slash history buffs.

 

[Kevin_Reilly]

I know this should really be on Bomb Squad, but I can't bear to interact with those guys anymore. I'm an occasional lurker at best these days.
I know some of you'all can play so here are my questions? And yes, I am working on a new '07 bag.
Is the modern ball any worse with a Persimmon diver? Is there a particular ball that is better with persimmon?

Lloyd, here is a story from GCA's own Mike Clayton with an interesting recap of a round with Geoff Ogilvy and Bob Shearer at Royal Melbourne, played with old gear.  You'd never see a story like this over at "Toad the +3" and "DClown's" site.

The Truth Behind the Power Game

[SL_Solow]

The distance gained from shaft length assumes that the ball is struck with equal precision.  Assuming equal MOI (an incorrect assumption in this case) it is entirely conceivable that a player who can control a 43.5 inch driver will get more distance with that club than with a 46 inch club that he cannot control.  In fact, Tom Wishon makes precisely that point in his most recent book on clubfitting when he recommends that most players would be better off with shorter drivers.  This discussion does not factor in the different properties of driver heads, the weight and flexibility of shafts etc.

As for the ball, most modern drivers have a lower CG than the older persimmon drivers.  I am told that the ball companies have adjusted the aerodynamics of the ball to optimize flight based on the new drivers and as a result the new balls are not as well suited for the old drivers.  Again, this does not allow for improvements in core materials, consistency of manufacture and the like.

I also take out the old persimmon a few times a year.  I also have my limber backed 19 year old hit it to see what the game was like in the old days.

[Doug Siebert]

Could any of you explain to me how a 43.5 inch driver manages to hit the same ball the same distance as a 46 inch driver ?

Or, was Archimedes wrong ?

Those claiming that the ball goes just as far with a persimmon wood (43.5) as with the modern drivers (46) need to revisit their testing methods, or, buy new equipment.

At a later date, I'll bring up the strength to weight factors between persimmon and titanium.

Perhaps it doesn't, but then my graphite shafted driver is only 44.5" long...  Actually, I'd have to measure it to be sure, but I think my persimmon was 1/4" or 1/2" overlength also, because I needed a higher swingweight to feel the head with such a stiff shaft (I never had much luck adding weight to the end of a driver shaft back then, the weights always broke loose and rattled around inside the shaft)

Plus, Patrick, you gotta remember not all of us are quite up to your skill level (or even in the same zip code) as far as getting the clubface to the ball into a square position with the ball on the sweet spot every time.  Ti drivers help the mishits out, to be sure, but I still notice a 'once a while' hit with my Ti driver that goes like 20 yards further than it should.  Maybe its a random concurrence of getting spin and launch angle just right, maybe a bit of extra testosterone gets into the shot and gives me 5 mph more clubhead speed, but maybe, just maybe, its what happens when you really pure one in exactly the perfect spot on the clubface and I just can't find that tiny spot very often in the vast wasteland of clubface area that a 400cc driver affords!

I can tell when I'm well off the center of the face of my 400cc, but I can't feel 1/4" off the center of the face with it.  I can feel less than that on a persimmon though.  And if I couldn't feel it, I could tell it happened from the result of the shot!  Its funny how with a smaller clubhead, its easier to hit the ball square, but the horrible results of even small mishits still make the club a terrible choice for everyday use unless you are a masochist.

[Jack_Marr]

Hi Lloyd

The lighter graphite shafts today allow greater clubhead speed too, so don't players chose the compression of their ball according to their swing speed.

Also, I don't know if persimmon would impart a different kind of spin to the ball, so the dimple pattern might also have a bearing on distance...

[A.G._Crockett]

I won't swear to any of this, but I believe the standard retail driver shaft now is 45.5, with Ping (and maybe others) at 45.75.

I also believe the average on the pro tour(s) is 44.25 or so.

As Doug S. says, lighter graphite shafts have to be longer to maintain an acceptable swingweight, say in the D2 range.  Tour shafts are typically shorter and much, much heavier; they want the control of a shorter shaft rather than more distance gained from a lighter shaft weight.

In other words, I would disagree that the shaft length is the crucial factor in distance gains (though it is certainly A factor).  The shaft weight is where the distance action is, and a lighter shaft has to be longer to maintain swingweight at a desirable level.  

[Doug Siebert]

I measured my old persimmon and it is 43.5", but the more I think about it, wasn't 43" the standard for steel?  I am really certain I had it made a bit longer to increase the swingweight because I wanted to feel the head a bit better with such a stiff shaft.

I think a lot of people have gone to much lighter swingweights in the large headed graphite clubs.  I used to shoot for a D5 or D6 with persimmon because otherwise the weight of the head was lost to me against the weight of the shaft, but now try for D0 in graphite because the head still weighs 200g but my shaft is less than half the weight of the good 'ol DG steel.

Interestingly, when I tried a launch monitor last summer for the first time they told me I needed a much heavier shaft, my graphite shaft is 58g and they said I shouldn't even look at anything less than 75g and more than that would probably be better.  I will have to take a look at that this year since I never got around to looking at drivers last year to replace my "temporary" Sasquatch clone I got for $100 in the early spring after my old one broke, but I expect it'll mean I'll need to go with a higher swingweight than D0 to get the same feel.