How many golf architects out there......

[Mike_Young]

I understand this site is entertainment.  But sometimes I become confused as to who actually makes a lving in this business and who does not?  I hear "we" did this course and the "I" was on site with Elvis etc at this place only to find out it is total BS.....and all of that is great but sometimes I sense it is blown out of proportion....so tell me....

1.How many people do you think actually make a living at Golf architecture and that is w/o their wife supporting them or being a TFB(Trust Fund Baby) or retired.

2.How many "architects" actually have an 18 hole course out there with their name on it or design for a signature?

With the number of courses coming on line and the number of people claiming to be active architects..something is out of whack....
PLEASE understand that I am only trying to clarify.  I admire and respect the passion, desire and opinions of most on this site and learn from all but sometimes I just need calrification.

[JESII]

Now wait just a second Mike, when one of you boys routs a cart path too far from a green and I'm able to recognize the problem and fix it, I want credit...

[JWL]

MY

Don't you know that it takes a village!   LOL

[Mike_Young]

Now wait just a second Mike, when one of you boys routs a cart path too far from a green and I'm able to recognize the problem and fix it, I want credit...

Jim,
If you do that to 5 courses then we maybe.....but just 1....I don't know.
Mike

[Mike_Young]

MY

Don't you know that it takes a village!   LOL

JWL
If I recall the interns caused some problems in that village.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

I wonder how all those listed on the ASGCA website make a living.
Mike, maybe you could share accounts of this Elvis sighting BS, without naming names of course, and we could all be more enlightened.

[paul cowley]

I'm a nobody, who are you? are you a nobody too?
...just a little something I remember from growing up in my little village in NY.

I'm sure someone here can remember the author.

[wsmorrison]

Unfortunately, in an industry such as golf architecture, where anyone can call themselves anything they want (and let the buyers beware), the continuum of talent is going to be much wider than other endeavors requiring baseline standards for certification.  I'm not saying there should be a formal structuring, I just marvel at what liberties some people take with definitions.

Paul,

If you're a nobody, what does that make golf historians?  We're the nobody's piss boys when it comes to helping with restorations

[Tim Copeland]

Congrats Mike...you have created the shortest thread in the history

[Joe Hancock]

Congrats Mike...you have created the shortest thread in the history

Nah.....it's already 7 worthwhile replies past any of my attempted threads....

Joe

[Mike_Young]

I'm a nobody, who are you? are you a nobody too?
...just a little something I remember from growing up in my little village in NY.

I'm sure someone here can remember the author.

Paul,
"then theres a pair of us
don't tell, they'd banish us, you know!"
I think the author was from a small Massachusett village with a name like Amherst.

[paul cowley]

MY....damn, I don't mind being a damn yankee ....just not a dumb one ...who be da author?

[Mike_Young]

MY....damn, I don't mind being a damn yankee ....just not a dumb one ...who be da author?

It was the intials E D...
Multiple choice
a.  Eric Dickerson
b. Emily Dickinson
c. Elvis Dressley

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Toro says they send out over 400 catalogues to gca types.  OF course, they don't want to offend anyone, so they may be liberal. I am with you - there just can't be as many active gca's as that.

On the other hand, I presume from your post that you are as amazed as I at how many courses are being designed by a "who's he?"  Seems like the top ten gca's or some newbie working out of his basement get all the jobs sometimes.

For that matter, I am also amazed at the credibility that posters here seem to have acquired, so that at least they get some gigs as consultants.  Regular architects like you and me seemingly know absolutely nothing, despite having truly designed over a 100 courses between us, no?  

I thought it was bad when going to clubs and having 200 members tell me I was full of it.....now I have 1500 posters worldwide doing so!

If there is any consolation, I think its worse for golf contractors.  When we put jobs we get out to bid, I always get a few phone calls saying he "built" RTJ's or some such courses.  With a little investigation, it turns out they were hired as a day laborer and made it just about that one day.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
I have met over 1000 guys that were shapers for Pete Dye.  But I have never heard any of those guys tell anybody they shaped for me.  It hurts my feelngs.  
I guess we do have close to 100 hundred between us.
Oh and I have met most of those guys that worked "one day for RTJ"
Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Between renovations/remodels and new construction, how many projects are there today vs say five years ago?  Has the total amount of work reduced the number of practicing GCA's?

Did 9/11 have as big an effect on golf course construction as it had on the hospitality and similar industries?

I'm sure I could look all this up but there have to be some lazy guys in that village!  

[paul cowley]

MY....damn, I don't mind being a damn yankee ....just not a dumb one ...who be da author?

It was the intials E D...
Multiple choice
a.  Eric Dickerson
b. Emily Dickinson
c. Elvis Dressley

 I thought it was maybe E.D. Hill?....I could be wrong, probly am.

[Michael Dugger]

Based on your last posting, Jeff, I'd say your drunk.

I am just going to assume that your posting is suppose to be taken "tongue in check."

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bill,

Yes, 9/11 was pretty devasting to golf architects.  Listen closely, and you will find many in the golf biz took on debt for the "privelege" of waiting for better days in the glamour biz that it is.  Yet, not many actually dropped out on design or building side for some reason. I guess we are all uemployable elsewhere......

Michael,

No, just tongue in cheek.  Feeling Mike's pain, not feeling no pain.  But, ask anyone in the biz, and you have to have a pretty strong stomach for the competitive biz that it is.  Mike and I have always posted the "reality checks" for what the mid levels of the design biz are really like.  Just a long line of posts in trying to educate and enlighten the masses.

Mike, did I misstate your position on this?

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
You did not misstate my position.  You actually stated it well.  I was actually going to post to defend the insinuation that you were drunk when you posted but then after further thought I assumed none of us would post on here if sober.

[Michael Dugger]

Michael,

No, just tongue in cheek.  Feeling Mike's pain, not feeling no pain.  But, ask anyone in the biz, and you have to have a pretty strong stomach for the competitive biz that it is.  Mike and I have always posted the "reality checks" for what the mid levels of the design biz are really like.  Just a long line of posts in trying to educate and enlighten the masses.

Mike, did I misstate your position on this?

Jeff,

I get ya.  But you can't fault a guy in this day and age from trumping up the resume to get a gig.  If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin', the saying goes.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,

I get ya.  But you can't fault a guy in this day and age from trumping up the resume to get a gig.  If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin', the saying goes.

Don't fake the resume.
Just join a dead architect group and run around pointing out old, long lost  bunkers which where they dynamited tree stumps and you can be an expert over nite.....of course you will need to have actually spoken to the dead guy thru a medium or something but many have done that.....

[Michael Dugger]

lying is one thing

trumping up is quite another

[Jeff_Brauer]

Michael,

did you mean "You ain't trying if you ain't cheating?

Now, what have YOU been drinking?

BTW, there is a long history of trumping up a resume, which in this day and age, I guess only Dye and Jim Fazio can do, and with a capital T.  I think JN had a 40 course list in Golf Magazine in 1980 before he had built a dozen with his own firm, crediting some designs as "under contract" which they undoubtedly were.  Traditionally however, most gca's waited until a course was open to claim it.  There have been a few that never made it to opening day, and that would be an interesting decision.  Would Norman take credit for those that were remodeled by Faz before opening, for instance.  Would I take credit for a course that was grassed, but never opened?

Sorry for topic drift, but I agree with Mike. While some get away with fudging credentials, its a small biz and most get hurt more by it than not.  I remember one of my first contacts always rented Lincolns to drive up to. I always wondered if the client would wonder why he showed up later in a Honda.  

I figure if someone likes you they will hire you.  If someone thinks you are a liar, they don't tend to like you.  I mean whaddya think this is, romance or somethin?

[Michael Dugger]

busted!