Pebble Beach No. 5 (Old and New)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Like Forest Gumps momma always said, "Stupid is as stupid does".  Its only not smart to go to the left on DV 18 if you go in the water.  As Tom said, its a common play and it works out for the vast majority, or else they wouldn't do it.

That's not necessarily true.
Golfers tend to make the same mistakes.
Experience is not always a good teacher..

Not working if you go in the water speaks to my point.
That's a hard lesson learned.

As to contending with the bunker on DV 18, thanks for pointing out yet another similarity to CPC 16 that I previously missed.  After playing to the left on CPC 16, you have two bunkers you have to contend with to get on the green.  Very nice point, I thank you

You may want to look at the bunker configuration at # 16 at CPC again, they're not remotely similar.

As to a 90 yard carry over water being heroic?  I don't think anyone would call that heroic with the exception of the 70 and older womens group, even if it is the ocean.  But nice try on that one.  

Then the shot to the green after an 80 yard layup off the tee is duck soup at Delta.

Thank You !

Using your same logic though, you can more appropriatly use that description on DV 18 because you have so much more trouble to deal with, water right and OB left.

Only if you don't use your bean.
I never said that the shot to the green was easy

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

1.  So because today the wind is stronger at CPC than DC it is ALWAYS that way?  And because sometimes it blows harder at CPC than DV, it's also going to do so ALL THE TIME?  Good lord man your desparation is reaching new heights.  I suggest psychological counseling.  And perhaps you should re-read Kevin Reilly's posts - he made none of the claims you state.  Not sure where you are getting that.  The fact remains that at both courses, sometimes it blows hard, sometimes a little, sometimes not at all.  There remains no significant difference in the play of the golf hole due to wind between these two courses.  And again, you could just take my word for it as I have played multiple times at both courses, and more importantly lived in the general area and frequented both areas for 25+ years.  I guess that counts for nothing.  Sigh.....

2. You can write a book on course management all you want; that won't help you understand how lesser players play the game.  They're not like you, Patrick.  Lots of times they don't do the smartest thing, but one that soothes their ego a bit.  70 yard bunts off the tee just aren't in their mental catalog of shots.

3. Correct on both accounts re the positions of the courses.  But Delta View isn't called such because it's completely landlocked... perhaps you ought to look up the word "delta" and review it's geograpical definition?  And this is beside the point anyway... we have MANY areas out here not at all near big water where the wind blows a LOT.  Go look up facts about I-580 and it's surrounds... I guess they just put windmills there for show.

4.  I'm not saying they do things CORRECTLY at CPC; I am just saying that's what they instruct.  You'd know this if you played the course - the instructions are  VERY VERY VERY visible.  Assuming you're not blind to such things, you do understand that 99% of players do what the course asks, correct?  In any case my assertions here were based on this.

That's it for that.

So, if I don't have your position correct, please do make the proper corrections.  Perhaps that's the best way to end this, which of course would be best for all concerned.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Hi Pat,

I think its a bit naive to think we would buy an argument giving one data point for the weather...today.  Much more data points need to be taken to even attempt to prove such a point, but you knew this.  It did give me a good chuckle though.

I have been to the MP area several times and sometimes its blowing hard and others just as calm as can be.  The same is true in Pittsburg.  And if you think it only blows near the coast, then how do you explain all the blown out sand dunes going from Eastern Colorado to Kansas?  Its windy anywhere you go out west.  As someone who has drive Hwy 80 from Oakland to Salt Lake City many a time, on that drive, its often the windiest in the Nevada Desert.

Keep lining em up Pat, and we'll keep knocking em down!!  

[Kevin_Reilly]

For the record:

1.  I have never seen T. Huckaby's windshirt or trousers expand in the wind at Delta View.

2.  All Bay Area folks know that the windiest spot in the region is not on the coast, it is the (inland) Cordelia Junction near Fairfield.

[Kalen Braley]

Lol...Tom really is right about the bait and switch techinques you love to use here

I never claimed the layup shot or the shot to the green from the left to DV18 is heroic.  You're the only one making those claims.  I will say that a 60 yard pitch from the left of DV18 to the green is preferred over the 120-130 yard shot that awaits if you layup short of the pond.

But only a tee ball going for the green would be heroic, just as at CPC 16.

As to the bunkers, whether there are 1 or 2, they still have to be safely negotiated to get the ball on the green.  A complete non-issue there.  Keep em coming!!  

[Tom Huckaby]

For the record:

1.  I have never seen T. Huckaby's windshirt or trousers expand in the wind at Delta View.

2.  All Bay Area folks know that the windiest spot in the region is not on the coast, it is the (inland) Cordelia Junction near Fairfield.

Dammit Kevin... you know how Patrick is... of course I know what you mean, as does anyone not desparate to prove a seemingly unprovable point in any argument... but you realize he's gonna take that point one to mean you believe 100% all of the time every day of every year 24 hours a day it always blows harder at CPC than Delta View, right?

 

[Kevin_Reilly]

For the record:

1.  I have never seen T. Huckaby's windshirt or trousers expand in the wind at Delta View.

2.  All Bay Area folks know that the windiest spot in the region is not on the coast, it is the (inland) Cordelia Junction near Fairfield.

Dammit Kevin... you know how Patrick is... of course I know what you mean, as does anyone not desparate to prove a seemingly unprovable point in any argument... but you realize he's gonna take that point one to mean you believe 100% all of the time every day of every year 24 hours a day it always blows harder at CPC than Delta View, right?

 

Yes, this windmill you are tilting at is a tough one.  But I admire your perseverance.  Surprised this hasn't turned into a technicolor conversation...yet.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Quixote didn't become who he is was by just going for the small windmills.

And this has only avoided technicolor because I lack the patience to add those tags... and I realize how utterly annoying that is.

Something a certain someone could give a rat's ass about, oh so painfully obviously....

 

[Marty Bonnar]

From another thread...

Ochone, ochone, it's friday night. Lighten up!



Proper - dare I say, Quixotian - Windwear!

FBD.

[Tom Huckaby]

 

I gotta get me some of those.  I didn't think it was possible to make me look more dashing or handsome but you've done it.

 

[Mark Bourgeois]

As long as Don Quixote has been dragged into this interminable thread, one passage in particular may be apropos:

That cannot be," returned Don Quixote, "because night overtook me while I was there, and day came, and it was night again and day again three times; so that, by my reckoning, I have been three days in those remote regions beyond our ken."

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick:

1.  So because today the wind is stronger at CPC than DC it is ALWAYS that way?  And because sometimes it blows harder at CPC than DV, it's also going to do so ALL THE TIME?

I never said that, that's your conclusion.
But, it's been my observation that the wind usually blows harder and more frequently on a penisula in the ocean rather than inland.[/color]

Good lord man your desparation is reaching new heights.  I suggest psychological counseling.  

It's your desperation that's causing you to infer extremes.[/color]

And perhaps you should re-read Kevin Reilly's posts - he made none of the claims you state.  Not sure where you are getting that.  The fact remains that at both courses, sometimes it blows hard, sometimes a little, sometimes not at all.  There remains no significant difference in the play of the golf hole due to wind between these two courses.  And again, you could just take my word for it as I have played multiple times at both courses, and more importantly lived in the general area and frequented both areas for 25+ years.  I guess that counts for nothing.  Sigh.....

You're stating that the winds are equal and I don't buy it.[/color]

2. You can write a book on course management all you want; that won't help you understand how lesser players play the game.  

Of course I understand how lesser players play the game, I've been playing with them for 50 years.  Unlike others, my powers of observation have been and remain keen.[/color]

They're not like you, Patrick.  Lots of times they don't do the smartest thing, but one that soothes their ego a bit.

I understand that, and that's their problem.
But, when an architect designs features that present a clear signal to the prudent golfer's brain with respect to the alternate routes of play, the fact that they ignore those signals doesn't undermine the nature aand inherent values of those architectural features.  You would have us believe that the ignoring of the feature means that it's not there or not relevant.[/color]

70 yard bunts off the tee just aren't in their mental catalog of shots.

That doesn't mean that the architect didn't create that feature, or that the feature is unavailable for play.
There is no such feature at CPC.[/color]

3. Correct on both accounts re the positions of the courses.  But Delta View isn't called such because it's completely landlocked... perhaps you ought to look up the word "delta" and review it's geograpical definition?  

A view from Google Earth would appear to explain the nature of the name[/color]


And this is beside the point anyway... we have MANY areas out here not at all near big water where the wind blows a LOT.  Go look up facts about I-580 and it's surrounds... I guess they just put windmills there for show.

Landforms can dictate wind patterns.
The land form at CPC dictates its wind and weather pattern.[/color]

4.  I'm not saying they do things CORRECTLY at CPC; I am just saying that's what they instruct.  

I never received those instructions.
Perhaps they knew that my course management skills were superior  [/color]

You'd know this if you played the course - the instructions are  VERY VERY VERY visible.  

I have played the course[/color]

Assuming you're not blind to such things, you do understand that 99% of players do what the course asks, correct?  In any case my assertions here were based on this.

In what form do these instructions manifest themselves ?
Is it on the score card ?
Does the score card state, "USGA rules will apply" ?

Water would seem to fall into one of two categories, casual water or a water hazard.  Under the rules of golf it can't be deemed through the green.[/color]

[JMorgan]

Only 728 exits 'til Merion.

[Kalen Braley]

One of the ironic twists to this thread is that the hole at DV18 doesn't even play today as originally designed.  Originally it was a short par 4, less than 320 yards long that required a long iron/5 wood from the tee with a short iron to the green.  But due to its location to the adjacent street, too many balls were being hit over the fence into oncoming traffic so they had to change it to the long par 3 it is today.

Perhaps who ever did the re-design was inspired by the 16th at CPC? Ok they likely weren't but was just trying to get Pats goat up on that one.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Argue all you want about the specifics, the winds, whatever.  The twoo holes are what they are and this has been amply confirmed by locals.  Of course you know better than we who live here, so I guess I shouldn't have even bothered.  

Re CPC, I am very very surprised you didn't notice this "the ocean is played as part of the course" rule.  Now I'd call you a liar or question your motives like you constantly do to me, but no, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  It is very strange though... you are the only person I've ever talked to who's played CPC and failed to notice it.  Sadly I can't point you to exactly where it's posted as I don't recall with absolute certainty; I do believe it's both on the scorecard and on signs.

In any case, care to take a stab at correcting my overall impression of your understanding of how scenic beauty fits in, or not, as one plays golf? I posted that a few posts back... I would be interested in your corrections.  If I do have that wrong, perhaps we need not have these continued arguments.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick:

Argue all you want about the specifics, the winds, whatever.  The twoo holes are what they are and this has been amply confirmed by locals.  Of course you know better than we who live here, so I guess I shouldn't have even bothered.  

What locals, other than you, noone who posted has played CPC, so how would they know how it plays.

To state that the two holes are very similar is to ignore the topography and the architeture.[/color]

Re CPC, I am very very surprised you didn't notice this "the ocean is played as part of the course" rule.  

I didn't notice it because it didn't exist.
And, nothing on the score card stated same.
When I return, I'll dig out my scorecards, scan and send them to you.[/color]

It is very strange though... you are the only person I've ever talked to who's played CPC and failed to notice it.  Sadly I can't point you to exactly where it's posted as I don't recall with absolute certainty; I do believe it's both on the scorecard and on signs.

I'm sure we can find out how it's currently indicated and played.  If it's an integral part of the golf course, then it must be a hazard or casual water since water hazards are not defined as being through the green, or it could be declared as an environmental area, although, you indicated that it's in play.

Under your interpretation, if a golfer was behind # 16 green, and chipped back over the front of the green, and his ball went off the cliff and onto the beach (low tide), still visible from the cliff, how would the ball be played ?[/color]

In any case, care to take a stab at correcting my overall impression of your understanding of how scenic beauty fits in, or not, as one plays golf? I posted that a few posts back... I would be interested in your corrections.  If I do have that wrong, perhaps we need not have these continued arguments.


The 18th at GCGC is a wonderful "Eden" hole.
But, the view from the tee shows the ramshackle clubhouse behind the green, the paddle tennis courts to the right and a monstrous high rise condo in the backround.

Is the hole less meritorious due to those objects ?

I think not, while you would downgrade the hole based on factors beyond the limits of the golf course.[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

The locals have confirmed time and time again about the SPECIFICS you continue to argue about:  the wind and all other aspects of the hole you've never played - Delta View #18.

And for about the 55th time, none of us have ever claimed that
"the holes are similar."  We've claimed that the PLAY on each is similar, and we've given exruciating details as to the many similarities and the few small differences.  

But whatever.  It remains clear you know our area better than those of us who live here, so arguing the details is pointless.

Now as for CPC16, I found a scorecard.  I trust you won't require a scan for proof?  Here is what is says on the back of the card:

U.S.G.A. RULES APPLY
Local Rules
Ocean holes 15, 16, and 17.  Cliff and beach played as part of the course, and not water hazard.  Deer prints can be repaired on greens only.

So I did have this slightly incorrect - it's the cliffs and beach that are part of the course, not the ocean itself.  BUT OF COURSE THAT CHANGES NONE OF THE POINT I MADE:  which is that at both courses, a shot long and left could result in lost ball.  Shots long and left at DV either get lost in the long rough in front of the fence, or go over the fence (and of course are OB, but the play and penalty is the same).  At CPC, it's a long way to the actual water long and left; the vast majority of balls that don't get found get lost in the high rough and rocks on the cliff, or just don't get found on the beach itself.  It's a long stretch to assume any ball that direction actually finds the water.  It is possible, yes.  But that doesn't change the play.... if one hits a ball that direction and there's any chance it goes over the cliff, one at the very least hits a provisional.

Thus the effect is the same at the two holes.  Shots long and left most likely result in a three from the tee situation.  And you'll note my original point in calling this a similarity said "lost ball possibility long and left."

Now as for the rest, yes I would call that hole less meritorious than a similar hole with a beautiful view behind.  It still is likely a great golf hole... the lack of beauty behind does not take that away... I just do believe a similar golf hole with beauty behind would give more joy to the player, so it seems very logical to me to say it would be more meritorious.  And I believe most golfers are with me on this.  I doubt many golfers find zero value in beauty outside the bounds of the course but directly in view, as you do.  

But fair enough.  We've gone as far as we can go on that distinction, which I find kinda silly but understand is fundamental to you.

 As it pertains to these two holes at hand though, let's say you give us the benefit of the doubt and the similarities and small differences are what we say.  If that's the case, then is it the small differences in play that make CPC the superior hole?

Note the differences would be only this:

- all carry over water for all layups at CPC; carry over water for 95% of layups utilized at DV, but a possibility for a 70 yard chip followed by a 130 yard carry over water.

- slightly higher raised tee and green.  Assume slightly - that is, not making a significant difference in play.

 - more bunkers surrounding green.

And that's it.  In that scenario what would make CPC the superior golf hole?  Just these small differences?  If so you put a lot of weight on some pretty trivial things... But would it be the beauty that you consider part of the course?  If so, I could live with that as at least you are acknowlodging a role for scenic beauty, which I did think you minimalized prior to this discussion.  I'd also find it silly to maintain that this beauty somehow stops at the edge of the golf course, but you're silly about a lot of things, so that's OK.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Since it's obvious Patrick will never believe me about anything....

[Kevin_Reilly]

Tom, I think you have a problem, since "Cliff and beach" is more narrow than "Ocean".

-Casual observer enjoying the debate

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

4. You miss the point re the rules issue.  [size=8x]

They play the ocean as part of the course at CPC.[/size]  

So the penalties for missing too far left are the same at both courses.  

I knew you were incorrect about this point.
Thanks for posting the score card confirming same.[/color]

You also are completely wrong about the rules if you continue to maintain that OB and Lost Ball give two different penalties,


I stand by my statement that they are two different penalties when a ball is lost in a water hazard, such as the Pacific Ocean.[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to actually read my posts. I indeed admit that my memory of the local rule was incorrect - it's cliff and beach, not ocean, that is played as part of the course.  And unlike some people, I was honorable enough to post a picture of the card so you could see this, even though I fully expected multi-color or large fonts gloating over how "wrong" I was.  Only as it pertains to the issue at hand and the point I made, I'm not wrong.  The local rule at Cypress remains a pretty unique thing; it's no surprise they put this on the scorecard if they want to play it that way - most would otherwise expect the water hazard line to be at the edge of the grass.  In any case for purposes of the point I made, my techical error CHANGES NOTHING!!!!  It's all explained in my last post.  At both courses, there is great potential for a lost ball - with stroke and distance penalty - on shots hit long and left.  That's the only point I maintained, and it remains true.  Please read the last post.

But artful dodge once again. Care to quit stalling, quit arguing the details, and answer the far more important questions I asked?  They are posed at the end of my last post.  Feel free to add the small possibility that a long and left shot could mean a water hazard drop in rare instances at CPC (ball FOR SURE going hot enough over the cliff to FOR SURE actually reach the ocean) as one of the differences.  The questions remain the same - are these small differences enough for you to call one hole great and the other not so?

I answered your questions regarding beauty or lack thereof behind a golf hole.  An honorable man would answer my questions in return.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom, I think you have a problem, since "Cliff and beach" is more narrow than "Ocean".

-Casual observer enjoying the debate

Kevin - I have no problem.  CPC remains pretty unique in this, and my memory of how it plays was conceptually correct if not exactly right in what's on the card.   We've discussed it several times in here - it's odd that they make the cliff and beach part of the course and it creates certain strange rules issues.   I had it happen... one time I did hit it long and left, and I was just gonna walk up and drop up there if we couldn't find it - caddie reminded me that wasn't right - I needed to hit provisional which would be three from the tee if we couldn't find it on the beach - because it was far far far from a fair assumption that the ball went all the way to the ocean.  Thus if not found, it's lost ball, not drop from water hazard, unless you know FOR SURE that the ball went all the way into the water.  And there's a lot of beach before the water starts on that left side... so it's pretty tough to ever argue the ball went all the way to it.  On top of that, the cliff itself has lots of rocks, brush, etc... it's pretty easy to lose a ball that goes over the edge, without coming close to going into the water.  And that means lost ball - stroke and distance drop - not water hazard drop.

In any case, don't let Patrick's voodoo fool you... My point in this discussion was that shots hit long and left most likely mean a stroke and distance penalty at both holes, and that remains true.   He denies this, because he didn't remember the Cypress local rule.  He's wrong.  But most importantly, this remains one small detail in the overall... don't let his hocus pocus detract from the main larger questions.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to actually read my posts. I indeed admit that my memory of the local rule was incorrect - it's cliff and beach, not ocean, that is played as part of the course.  

And unlike some people, I was honorable enough to post a picture of the card so you could see this, even though I fully expected multi-color or large fonts gloating over how "wrong" I was.  

Only as it pertains to the issue at hand and the point I made, I'm not wrong.  

You are wrong.
There's a distinct difference between a ball being out of bounds and a ball being lost in a hazard.[/color]

The local rule at Cypress remains a pretty unique thing; it's no surprise they put this on the scorecard if they want to play it that way - most would otherwise expect the water hazard line to be at the edge of the grass.  

How is a wildly pull hooked tee shot on # 18 that goes into the ocean ruled ?[/color]

In any case for purposes of the point I made, my techical error CHANGES NOTHING!!!!

Of course it does.  A Stroke and distance are different from
A Stroke[/color]  

At both courses, there is great potential for a lost ball - with stroke and distance penalty - on shots hit long and left.  That's the only point I maintained, and it remains true.  Please read the last post.

I'm reasonably familiar with the rules.[/color]

But artful dodge once again. Care to quit stalling, quit arguing the details, and answer the far more important questions I asked?  They are posed at the end of my last post.  Feel free to add the small possibility that a long and left shot could mean a water hazard drop in rare instances at CPC (ball FOR SURE going hot enough over the cliff to FOR SURE actually reach the ocean) as one of the differences.  

In a previous post I asked you about the elevation changes between the greens and the water at both courses.  You ihdicated that there was no substantial difference, which, I questioned.

How do you account for the fact that the scorecard at CPC references that differential as a CLIFF.  Some would define a cliff as a HIGH steep face of rock, a precipice.

As I stated many times, the topography and the architecture of both holes is dramatically different.[/color]

The questions remain the same - are these small differences enough for you to call one hole great and the other not so?

These aren't small differences.
The topography and architecture is dramatically different as is the play of the hole.

As you pointed out, The cliffs and The beach are an integral part of the hole at CPC.

In addition, no matter which way you play at CPC you have a forced carry of over 100 yards.  No such demand exists at Delta.

Having an equidistant shot to the green is not the evaluative factor in determining the architectural merits of a hole.
This is something that you seem confused about.
You seem to think that because two par 3 holes play to the same distance that they're equivalent holes, except for the nature of their surrounds.  I think otherwise.

The distance a shot must fly doesn't determine architectural merit.[/color]  

I answered your questions regarding beauty or lack thereof behind a golf hole.  An honorable man would answer my questions in return.

I've answered it dozens of times.
Either you didn't recognize the answer or refuse to accept it.

The 18th at Delta View and the 16th at CPC are not similar holes, in form, terrain, configuration or playability.
Their commonality is their respective yardages.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Kevin Reilly,

Tom Huckaby has never let the facts influence his position or the outcome of the debate.

I wonder how he would handle peak high tide when no beach was visible.

I also wonder why CPC doesn't mark the top of the cliff with a hazard line, especially to speed up play and avoid the liability of someone falling while trying to retrieve a ball or play a shot.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I told myself I'd never do this, but your constant diversions from the points at hand by arguing the details has left me no choice.  We are going technicolor.

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to actually read my posts. I indeed admit that my memory of the local rule was incorrect - it's cliff and beach, not ocean, that is played as part of the course.  

And unlike some people, I was honorable enough to post a picture of the card so you could see this, even though I fully expected multi-color or large fonts gloating over how "wrong" I was.  

Only as it pertains to the issue at hand and the point I made, I'm not wrong.  

You are wrong.
There's a distinct difference between a ball being out of bounds and a ball being lost in a hazard.[/color]


Of course there is, and anyone knows that.  But the POINT I HAVE MDE IS THAT ONE CAN GET A LOST BALL SITUATION - NOT IN A HAZARD - LONG AND LEFT AT CPC 16.  You do see how that happens, correct?  I've described it several times.   In any case the fact is I said that at both holes lost ball/OB situation long and left (ie stroke and distance) - IS POSSIBLE and on that that I remain correct. [/color]

The local rule at Cypress remains a pretty unique thing; it's no surprise they put this on the scorecard if they want to play it that way - most would otherwise expect the water hazard line to be at the edge of the grass.  

How is a wildly pull hooked tee shot on # 18 that goes into the ocean ruled ?[/color]


It would seem to take a hook defeating the laws of physics to make that happen as the ball would need to go backwards.  Care to try this one again?  If you mean 16, it would take a VERY huge hook on an attempted layup going VERY far off line to make it reach the ocean for sure.  [/color]

In any case for purposes of the point I made, my techical error CHANGES NOTHING!!!!

Of course it does.  A Stroke and distance are different from
A Stroke[/color]
And of course that's true.  But my point remains correct, as described many, many times.[/color]

At both courses, there is great potential for a lost ball - with stroke and distance penalty - on shots hit long and left.  That's the only point I maintained, and it remains true.  Please read the last post.

I'm reasonably familiar with the rules.[/color]
Only when it seems to suit your needs and you don't want to divert and stall.[/color]

But artful dodge once again. Care to quit stalling, quit arguing the details, and answer the far more important questions I asked?  They are posed at the end of my last post.  Feel free to add the small possibility that a long and left shot could mean a water hazard drop in rare instances at CPC (ball FOR SURE going hot enough over the cliff to FOR SURE actually reach the ocean) as one of the differences.  

In a previous post I asked you about the elevation changes between the greens and the water at both courses.  You ihdicated that there was no substantial difference, which, I questioned.

How do you account for the fact that the scorecard at CPC references that differential as a CLIFF.  Some would define a cliff as a HIGH steep face of rock, a precipice.

As I stated many times, the topography and the architecture of both holes is dramatically different.[/color]

The point I made was that both holes have raised tees and raised greens, which they do.  I stated that although each was greater at CPC, in terms of the play of the hole, the differences were not significant.  And I don't think they are.  The play is pretty much the same.  Now you could just believe me given I've played both holes and you have not, but of course that's beyond your capabilities.  But feel free to call that a difference for terms of the main question, which I will rephrase. [/color]

The questions remain the same - are these small differences enough for you to call one hole great and the other not so?

These aren't small differences.
The topography and architecture is dramatically different as is the play of the hole.

As you pointed out, The cliffs and The beach are an integral part of the hole at CPC.

In addition, no matter which way you play at CPC you have a forced carry of over 100 yards.  No such demand exists at Delta.

Having an equidistant shot to the green is not the evaluative factor in determining the architectural merits of a hole.
This is something that you seem confused about.
You seem to think that because two par 3 holes play to the same distance that they're equivalent holes, except for the nature of their surrounds.  I think otherwise.

The distance a shot must fly doesn't determine architectural merit.[/color]  

 Fair enough, at least we are finally getting somewhere sort of. But again you dodge the question.  Of course I find way more similarities than just the distance, and I have listed them several times.  Nice dodge, once again. But they are going to be rephrased, and if you have any honor you will answer.  You haven't yet.
[/color]

I answered your questions regarding beauty or lack thereof behind a golf hole.  An honorable man would answer my questions in return.

I've answered it dozens of times.
Either you didn't recognize the answer or refuse to accept it.

The 18th at Delta View and the 16th at CPC are not similar holes, in form, terrain, configuration or playability.
Their commonality is their respective yardages.[/color]


No, you haven't answered.  You've continued to argue the details, which remains mind-boggling given I've played both holes and you only one.  And the questions I last asked moved beyond this into the theoretical.  You dodged them, even though I ask them only to try and gain understanding of your view, which remains odd to me.  But I aim to learn.  Your aim remains a mystery.  Will you have honor when I re-ask the questions?  We'll see.[/color]