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Chris Cupit

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Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2007, 07:32:26 PM »
Kalen

Fair enough.  What's kinda crazy is that it's hard to tell much just looking at the aerial and the sketch.  As my wife points out, I'm often wrong and could be in this case, but right now, I wouldn't get too excited about playing the mystery hole.  ;)

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2007, 07:43:23 PM »
Kalen et al,

On a serious note I think that the crux of architectural dinstinctiveness is expressed in differences of degree not just differences in kind.  In other words I am not sure that just because holes share "similar" shots with other great holes, that necessarily makes them great themselves.

While holes may be similar in kind, there is enough difference in degree that seperates the greats from the average from the awful.  If all down the left side of #17 at TOC was unplayable gorse right next to a fairway that sloped away from the player into that stuff, that would be too much--even if PAR were INCREASED to reflect it being much harder. It would loose its strategic harm and become a terrible hole.

Another example, 17 at Sawgrass would be "stoooopid" if it were an island green requiring a 200 yard shot or if the green was significantly smaller or if the contours had the green falling away from the shot.  Still an island hole, but...


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2007, 05:28:24 PM »
Tommy:

As I said before, I never have known where this hole was, I just remember that Thomas diagrammed it in his book.  In fact, the diagram was side-by-side with a diagram of the Road hole at St. Andrews for comparison purposes.

Was it at Ojai as Michael suggests?  I didn't know they had a landing strip there.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2007, 05:47:25 PM »
Kalen et al,

On a serious note I think that the crux of architectural dinstinctiveness is expressed in differences of degree not just differences in kind.  In other words I am not sure that just because holes share "similar" shots with other great holes, that necessarily makes them great themselves.


Hi Chris,

As stated in a prior post, I was not trying to say its a great hole or even anywhere in the class of holes such as #17 at TOC, or #8 at PB. Only that its strategy is comparable on a least a few of its elements.

That being said, in my opinion, it is a hole to note, if for nothing else because of its sheer uniqueness and varied ways to play it.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2007, 12:51:21 AM »
Tom, (and Michael)
I was testing you to see if youc ould remember, which of course you did, but yes, this is the old 2nd at Ojai.

Their were actually two landing fields for planes, one here and another directly across the road, and like I said it was for old biplanes, so undoubtedly it  all grass as was common for landing fields as such for the day. It wasn't until I was reading some more into Golf Architecture In America when I came across that drawing I've probably seen countless times and didn't realize what I was looking at--even though that hole at Ojai has always perplexed me. Knowing the property a bit, I think the hole might have been an interesting one, albeit another "lost hole" that thankfully Carter Morrish didn't try to recover.

The way things are going at Ojai, it won't be long until they do copy a Road Hole of some kind, by enabling more room for spa or the inn, thus requiring a carry over some form of building!

Chris & Garland,
Yes, the hole maybe stooopid to you but obviously for Thomas to include it in his book, he must have been proud of the work. I'll try to post the illustration later, but almost think it would be better if some of you opened the book and found it yourselves. You might be surprised what you might pick-up. Was it a GREAT golf hole? Probably not in terms of what many of you think are GREAT golf holes, but it was certainly an interesting, quirky option that one of the least arrogant of golfing personalities would ever construct.

Cheers

Arbs,
The one thing I have picked-up in this thread is the difference between us and you. We have lost our way in America--some of us--most of us. Thank God for those of you abroad who realize the joy of quirky, fun and challenging golf holes, and realize their place in the Sport. I enjoyed your reply:

I think the hole is potentially very good considering the intrusive nature of ob.

I think this is exactly what George C. Thomas was thinking when he built  the damn thing! It's also almost proof of him spending some time on a links course or two. It's not definitive evidence, but it's pretty close! ;)

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2007, 09:55:56 AM »
Tommy,

Here's a hole with somewhat similar lines on a links course. It's a short par four with the aggressive play being to the left side. The green is small (although it's been enlarged by about a third since it was first built it is still small) so length is an advantage. The safe drive is to the right but the shot in to the green is more difficult. It's a devil of a short par four.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 11:10:23 AM by Bill Gayne »

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2007, 12:33:38 PM »

The way things are going at Ojai, it won't be long until they do copy a Road Hole of some kind, by enabling more room for spa or the inn, thus requiring a carry over some form of building!

Chris & Garland,
Yes, the hole maybe stooopid to you but obviously for Thomas to include it in his book, he must have been proud of the work. I'll try to post the illustration later, but almost think it would be better if some of you opened the book and found it yourselves. You might be surprised what you might pick-up. Was it a GREAT golf hole? Probably not in terms of what many of you think are GREAT golf holes, but it was certainly an interesting, quirky option that one of the least arrogant of golfing personalities would ever construct.

Cheers


I think this is exactly what George C. Thomas was thinking when he built  the damn thing! It's also almost proof of him spending some time on a links course or two. It's not definitive evidence, but it's pretty close! ;)

Tommy,

Lo and behold I've got my copy of George Thomas' "Golf Architecture in America  Its Strategy and Construction" right in front of me.

Where do I start?

To begin with, page 280 has your hole side by side with, NOT the road hole at TOC!!!  (Unless Thomas forgot to put the road in the "road hole" as well as other differences I'll discuss below).

The picture caption reads, "Out of bounds makes a fine hazard occasionally, but, if possible, the out of bounds should be controlled by the club.  Approximate sketches of two existing holes".

I am too stoooopid to scan and post the picture from the book so I will describe them as best as I can:

The left sketch depicts a hole at 425 yards in length (the sketch is on a grid in 20 yard increments) that has a carry over OB similar to the tee shot on 17 at TOC.  However, the entire fairway is mounded on three sides so that the drive is into a bowl.  Large mounding left and right runs along both sides of the fairway beginning 140 yards from the tee and running to 260 yards from the tee.  There is also a "long, left" bank at 240 that helps stop balls played away from the OB on the right.  I don't remember a punch bowl fairway at TOC and I don't remember how the land could have ever accomodated the bowl in the past.

The green on the sketch is guarded by a very large front left bunker.  The bunker is far larger than the road bunker and the green is set at a different angle than the road hole.  Right of the "sketch green" is containment mounding and rough--definitely no road in the sketch.

The greenside bunker is the only bunker on the "sketch hole"  No cheapes or scholars bunkers.  

Lastly, and perhaps most telling, the left sketch is being used by Thomas as an example of a hole where there is "OUT OF BOUNDS" "CONTROLLED BY CLUB" (Thomas' caps, not mine).
I never thought that the OB right on TOC was an "option" :D

The right hand sketch is almost exactly what you posted.  It is only identified as an "existing hole" though not described on this page any further.  

The right hand sketch is Thomas' example of a hole laid out when "OUT OF BOUNDS  (is) NOT CONTROLLED BY CLUB".  In this instance the hole is about 445 yards long.  There are four fairway bunkers.  One right and one left at 180 yards and one right (preventing a ball from going OB) at 290-300 yards out and a left bunker from 280-320.  At its widest the fairway is 80 yards wide from 200-280 off the tee.  

The narrow fairway with OB right and an area Thomas desribes as "WASH" left is 20 yards wide, bulging out to 30 yards wide just short of the green.  The right side, rear and right front corner of the green are surrounded by mounds.

FUNDAMENTALLY, the hole NEVER requires any carry over the OB.  Playing down the left hand side of the fairway, (the left 40 yards) one could play the hole with a putter and never have to carry either the OB or the "wash".

I think Thomas' points may have been this:  
  (1).  When possible, when OB is not controlled by the club, don't force a player to carry it.  

In another chapter "Remodeling Old Courses" Thomas has a drawing entitled "Compulsory carries changed to optional hazards" (pg. 303).  From Thomas, "...the compulsory carries.  The average man must play short on his second; the fine golfer has a splendid test of length but no placement.  At right, the traps require placement on both drive and second with a safe line of play for all golfers...Diagram at left (the forced carry sketch) is a rough copy of principle employed on well-known courses some years ago----that at right (strategic?), more recent strategy with less hardship."

     (2).  In those instances where the club has no choice and OB must be carried, a generous fairway is called for.  (The "bowl fairway" on the left sketch was 100 yards wide from mound to mound and the right side did offer a better angle into the green).

I promise to do whatever it takes to get the paged scanned in for everyone to see and I am sorry that the "mystery hole" did not ring a bell and I didn't look in my book earlier.

A couple of final thoughts:
I think the insinuation that as an "American" I don't appreciate quirky is a joke.  I've played in 5 R & A Championships, The St. Andrews Links, as well as 100 or so rounds in the U.K. and Ireland and absolutely love and appreciate links golf and its quirks.  (Give me N. berwick anytime over Muirfield--is that quirky enough for you ;D).

Also, I've put my money where my opinions lay and have built a golf course that while not fancy or expensive is unique to my area.  I have a punchbowl, two blind shots, a redan, brown sand with fescues and sedges throughout, very undulated greens from 4000 sq. ft to 10,000 sq. ft.  In short, for my area it's different and quirky.

I appreciate that all of us should try and read and research things ourselves and I am certainly glad I found where to look in this case, but I could do without the patronizing, "...if some of you opened the book and found it yourselves...You might be surprised what you might pick up." comment.

Lastly, I hope that this site will encourage independent thought.  It seems that whenever someone offers up a candid or honest opinion and does their best to offer an explanation of their thoughts, there is always someone there to say, "but this is the right answer, George Thomas said so" or "it's a Ross green, it must be genius" or whatever.  No doubt these and many unheralded names are great and brilliant at what they do--certainly I would have no ability to be an architect right now.  But I have a good eye and certainly am "qualified" to comment on architecture!  Guess what, no matter how great someone is, they aren't always "right"  In fact, in many cases there is no right or wrong just differences of opinion in many cases.

The irony I suppose is that in the case you presented I am not certain George Thomas would have agreed with you.  

PS  I think the Doonbeg hole looks pretty cool :)


Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2007, 01:38:46 PM »
Tommy, where on the property at Ojai was this routed? It looks like it might have been where the current 6th hole lives now. And gathering from your comments I assume you're not fond of the 2 "found" holes?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 09:38:30 PM by Michael Robin »

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2007, 02:49:11 PM »

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2007, 02:54:59 PM »
I'm sorry I can't get a damn picture to work.  The link works but the picture won't show up >:( >:(

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2007, 03:18:17 PM »
I'm sorry I can't get a damn picture to work.  The link works but the picture won't show up >:( >:(



You forgot to add a / before img in your second tag

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2007, 05:12:57 PM »
Thank you :)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2007, 11:08:50 PM »
Chris,

The hole isn't a copy of the Road Hole, even though the drawing clearly depicts a drive over OB despite the fact that Thomas' (Bell's) left drawing shows exactly that to a green that is set at an angle  that creates more strategy when negotiating the left hand bunker.... Unless you want an exact copy, which I can't give you because Thomas didn't do exact copies, only expounded on strategy and principles. With that, how much Thomas have you played which doesn't allow you to see the main point:

The drawing on the left--Red Hill CC's 2nd, (which today can't even be considered a shadow of it's former self) is known by the club as The Road Hole. You see Chris, this isn't about copying exact shots, it's about being inspired to create situations that can be expounded on--such as Riviera #4 which isn't a so much a Redan, as it is a modified Redan or how the 13th at Riviera at one time was as good of a Cape hole as you could find. (It probably still is)

This is why the old 2nd at Ojai isn't so much a Road Hole, but produces a shot that is expounded on from inspriation of that shot of the tee at the Old Course' 17th.

Your turn

Michael,
The old 2nd was the old 3rd which is now the 12th Confusing isn't it? But that's why the Ojai people should be shackled and beaten for what they've done to that golf course. Simply put, it is now the par 5 that plays before the recovered Lost Holes that runs alongside the road and the superintendents building. If you go out there on the left side of the hole just before the arroyo/barranca starts, you can see many of the old lefts side bunkering that is not seen in the aerial, but is seen in the drawing.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 11:09:37 PM by Tommy Naccarato »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2007, 12:08:00 AM »
Tommy,

Interesting hole on the left.  As you say, a road hole, but with a Redan slope on the right of the green (if I read the drawing correctly.)  Thus, we can insuate that Thomas thought the actual road hole too tough, and provided an alternate means of play for those who go left, using the nursing slope to attain the green and miss the bunker (which has also been softened)

Also of note is the mound on the right of the fw which apparently would kick shots aimed at the far edge of the fw to the OB area.  He wanted you to hit right, but also punished going slightly too far right with a defletion knob.

So, it appears he thought the tee shot needed to be toughened from the original version, but the approach should have a little less difficulty and more ways to play.

And we criticize those gca's who "expound" on classic design concepts today, but don't follow them faithfully!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2007, 01:14:12 AM »
Tommy - I haven't been to Ojai in a year, have they changed the routing yet again, 'cause the hole of which you speak is the hole that I thought it was, I just remembered it as the 6th hole on that particular nine?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Theories in Golf Architecture
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2007, 02:07:29 AM »
Michael,
I'll try to post a better idea of the routing later, but I'm not sure if you knew they switched nines when they completed the expansion to the resort and spa.

Jeff, Maybe he felt that the land best deserved a Redan-like kick for that particular hole? the land at Redlands surely dictated it, at least where that hole is located, the right to left slope of the green itself. Build me a golf course as good as Thomas' and we'll expound on it all you want. That's all I ask! (and hope)

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