[TEPaul]

Can you think of any holes that would be improved and made more interesting or challenging for the elite player by shortening tee length?

We see so much attempted improvement today by increasing tee length I'm wondering if there's anything around that would be better by going the other way.

[Adam Clayman]

The solicitor is innaccurate about "nobody", "nobody" trying and the kid from Nebraska.

Shivas, Your ideas have already fucked up Pebble enough. Why don't you just recuse yourself from replying on any alterations, from now on?  

[wsmorrison]

Some holes that get lengthened aren't simply too long for temptation purposes, but some disconnect from the very features that influenced the hole design in the first place.

The 12th hole of the Old Course at the Homestead was a short par 5 with a landing area that was just beyond a steep upslope.  The course was lengthened an the new tee created a disconnect so that even long hitters could not get anywhere near the top of the slope.  In fact, good players playing from the tips were left with a long distance from the green from the base of a tall steep slope.  The lengthening worked on the scorecard but not at all on the ground.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

That's a good point. I've always called that a "strategic disconnect".

Most of this lengthening tries prevent these long hitters  from going right over the old LZs and to get them back into the old original LZs but occassionally lengthening on some holes gets so excessive it actually disconnects them from even reaching the old LZs.

You know, if you did something like add 75-100 yards of distance to a hole you'd probably almost automatically get and strategic LZ disconnect.

[Peter Pallotta]

TE
no specifics, but I've often thought that shortening some Par 3s, dramatically, might make them more interesting.

Hitting 7-PW into a Par 3 may be challenging, depending on the hole. But I think the real challenge is asking the good player to take something OFF his PW or even SW -- thereby testing not only his distance control, but his control of trajectory, his thinking etc.  

Plus, there'd by the psychological affect of him thinking definite birdie...with potentially hilarious consequences.

Peter

[Mark Pearce]

I can think of a couple of courses with what I think of as par 2.5 holes.  They can be just as good as any "half par" holes.  There's a hole at Sandy Lodge, for instance, which, if I recall correctly is 80 yards.  Nasty bunker protecting the front of the green, however, and the green has almost no depth, so you'd better get your wedge absolutely right for length.  If you do, you'll have a short birdie putt.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark it's the 8th great fun.  The green is also severely canted and when firm and fast how can you hold it?  I have a friend there who's been on their team for over 20 years.  He loves it when an opponent see's the hole for the first time, they read in the yardage book warning of the danger of 3 putting and then fail to get their wedge on the green!  In high summer he calls it a 2 or 4 hole.


PS by going back into trees they've managed to stretch it to something like a whopping 115 yards.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I'm not sure if my pick is relevant for the elite golfers, but more so for good club golfers (i.e. single digit handicap).  I'm thinking #6 at Aronimink.  It's 260 from the member tee to carry the bunkers on the inside of the dogleg.  Now, I know a lot of guys here can carry it 260... I can't (at least not 95% of the time), so I always play out to the left.  Most guys I play with it's the same thing... no decision has to be made at all.  

Now if the tee were up just 10-15 yards, offering a carry of around 245 yds, now it becomes enticing.  That in turn brings the trees to the right even more into play for the wayward teeball.

thoughts?

[Chris Kane]

Don't they sometimes move the 3rd tee forward on Masters Sunday?

[Mark Pearce]

Mark it's the 8th great fun.  The green is also severely canted and when firm and fast how can you hold it?  I have a friend there who's been on their team for over 20 years.  He loves it when an opponent see's the hole for the first time, they read in the yardage book warning of the danger of 3 putting and then fail to get their wedge on the green!  In high summer he calls it a 2 or 4 hole.


PS by going back into trees they've managed to stretch it to something like a whopping 115 yards.

Tony,

I think that at 115 yards it would probably play easier than at 80.  115 is pretty much a full PW for me and, I suspect others.  By making the hole less than a full club (OK, I suspect there may be a few for whom 80 is a full lob wedge or sand wedge) it makes you take something off and introduces judgment into the shot.  Perhaps that's exactly what this thread is about.

[TEPaul]

Wayne Wiggins:

On something like that 6th hole at Aronimink, if I were you I'd just speak to the Golf or Green Committee and ask them if they'd just tell maintenance to put the tee markers up 10-15 yards from the members tee monument (card yardage). I believe the handicap system will give any rated tee a leeway of 10-15 yards and maybe up to 20 yards. Otherwise ask if they'd consider just moving the tee marker monument on that hole 15 yards shorter.

Peter P:

Actually par 3 holes are the only ones where adding tee yardage can get a hole's shot values back to something like they once were or were designed for simply because they are one shot holes.

With par 4s and par 5s the reality is even if you can find additional tee yardage for these long hitters today and get their tee shots back into the old LZs you can only ever solve half the problem---eg the tee shot. If you get them back into the old tee shot LZs their approach shot club selection is still going to be a whole lot less than it once was. The reason for that is these long hitters today hit their irons proportionately that much farther than the past as they do their driver.

For that reason I call this tee length addition thing a "one way stretch" (tee shot). To get the approach shot club selection and shot value back to where it once was would have to be a "two way stretch" (from the tee shot LZ to the green) and to do that you'd have to move the green and we all know that would be mostly a real architectural disaster and expensive.

[D_Malley]

played aronimink recently in the late fall of 06.  have not played there in several years.  we played the back tees, which there seemed to be some added distance on since last time playing there.  the par 3's seemed to all be playing around the same length.  from my memory there used to be alot more variety in the distances of the par 3's.  it could just of been the tee placements on the day i played.  have they added alot of new back tees on the par 3's?  are they all around the 190-200 yard playing distance range? it seems like shortening a couple of these each day would create a little more interest.

[JESII]

TEP,

#4 at Merion East.

I am not sure of the yardages, but 20 or so yards shorter and I'd be able to drive it to the end of the fairway and take a swing at the green in two...then again, I've always liked the challenge of trying to hit that second fairway with a lay-up...have you ever noticed that fairway moves from side to side down there? Literally, you can hit a second shot at a tree in the morning and be in the middle of the fairway, in the afternoon you can hit it at the same tree and be 20 feet into the rough...not quite as bad as different height flagsticks, but underhanded none-the-less.

Anyway, I think it's a good hole now that would not get worse if it were shorter...

[D_Malley]

 alot more interest can be achieved if the supers would move the tees markers around a little more to create a little more variety.  even if it means playing some holes alot shorter.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Oh, absolutely!  There are tons of them.  Take #14 at Pebble.  Nobody can reach that hole in two, but wouldn't you like to see somebody try if the tee was up maybe 25 yards?

Or how about #14 at NGLA?  Wouldn't you like to see  that tee moved up about 25 yards,

Only if they provide SCUBA gear and Lifeguards at the new forward tee.[/color]

so more guys would take a whack at it?  I peg that carry at about 320 or so, which is impossible for all but that kid from Nebraska and his ilk.  

Not really,

The topography lends itself to a much shorter drive of between 250 and 270 that could run up to the green[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It might be interesting to play # 4, # 5 and # 15 at GCGC from forward tees, allowing the crossing features or gnarly off fairway features to come into play.

But, you can always do that by moving up to another set of tees.

[Gary Slatter]

any course over 7000 yards would be improved by shortening it.  sorry, I just noticed the thread was about individual holes.

[TEPaul]

"...have you ever noticed that fairway moves from side to side down there? Literally, you can hit a second shot at a tree in the morning and be in the middle of the fairway, in the afternoon you can hit it at the same tree and be 20 feet into the rough...not quite as bad as different height flagsticks, but underhanded none-the-less."

Sully:

No, frankly I've never noticed that the fairway on the second half of #4 "moves" from morning to afternoon. But if I think of all the times I've played that course it's quite possible it moves when my ball is in the air because for some reason I can't remember hitting it----I'm always in the right rough despite thinking it looked like I was hitting it where the fairway was supposed to be. Furthermore, I don't aim at a tree, I aim at one of those radio towers that are somewhere over in Conshocken that are supposed to be behind the green. Apparently I've been aiming at the wrong one all these years.

That Merion is just some kinda golf course and the people who bulit it were some kinda good. Maybe that fairway was one of the influences C.B. Macdonald and his son-in-law Whigam had on Wilson and his committee. Maybe there's some kinda template "moving fairway" hole over in GB somewhere that M&W told Hugh about.

But on second thought, you're probably just smokin' something and I've probably hit about 200 crumby second shots on that hole.

On the third hand, maybe the hole is one that just has some strange karma. You know that young man from Nebraska who hits it harder than anyone else in the world, Long John Hurley? In the amateur he said there was something about that hole that just weirded him out standing on the tee. He said he doubted he'd ever be able to hit that fairway off the tee and he never did despite using a 3 wood.

[wsmorrison]

The second fairway on Merion's 4th shifts to the left so that you have to aim your second shot to the left more than feels comfortable.  The direct path is towards the back tee on the 5th.  There's a hardwood that is the correct aiming point.  It is well left of the center of the first fairway.  When you aim where you think you need to go, that is along the path of the tee shot, it is in the right rough which tends to be thick.

Here's a capture from Google Earth that shows the shift.  The photo is a bit dated since it doesn't show the fairway widening on 5 and elsewhere that was done a few years back.

[D_Malley]

what makes hitting the second landing area on #4 difficult is that you can sometimes see part of the green or bunkers around the green and this gives you the impression that the fairway goes straight into it.  but as you can see on wayne picture the fairway cants to the left approaching the green, so if you aim straight at the green there is a good chance you will get caught up in the right rough with a downhill lie.

[Kyle Harris]

Wow Tom Paul confusing Conshohocken for Roxborough...  

[JESII]

Come on TEP, Wayne and Racetrack, don't be naive...you could hit one layup right were you think it should go and the ball is 20 feet in the right rough and immediately drop another ball and hit it 20 feet left of that and it's 2 feet in the left rough.

I would like to take a poll...how many people have ever hit the second portion of the fairway on #4 at Merion East with a lay-up shot from short of the big cross bunker, the one I believe Wayne refers to as the Principle's Nose...

Out of about 20 rounds, not once for me.

[D_Malley]

it is a tough fairway to hit for someone who does not play that shot alot. everyone wants to aim too far right.  

[Chris Cupit]

Years ago I thought I remember #16 at TOC as playing around 380 yards and when I last played it seemed more like 420?

At 380 I could come close to carrying past or right at the principals nose bunkers or I had to lay up with an iron.  There was a bit of a conflict because I hated laying up with a 2 or 3 iron if I felt I could get well up the fairway past the trouble.

At the new length I would have to kill a driver to maybe sqeak past the bunkers.  Didn't seem worth it at all.  Automatic lay up for me now--aim at left edge of left principals nose and go.

I wonder what the pros do/have done the last couple of Opens?  IF they are always laying back, then this might be a candidate for shortening.

PS  At the new length I would humbly suggest that if the corridor were just a little wider, it might tempt more play along the OB?!

[TEPaul]

Chris:

That's a very good example. A club should keep a close eye on whether what once was a really good option has suffered from non-use by lengthening. If so it's obviously a mistake and the hole should be shortened enough to bring that option back into use. That's a good example of a "strategic disconnect".

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