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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« on: February 06, 2007, 02:51:49 PM »
Pete Dye Dominates List; 32 Public Layouts Included Among

26 States Represented in the Ranking

This Week’s PGA Tour Venue Spyglass Hill Ranks No. 24

New York, NY—Resurrecting its first-ever ranking from 1966, Golf Digest names America’s 50 Toughest Golf Courses in its upcoming March 2007 issue (on newsstands February 13). The full list of “America’s 50 Toughest Golf Courses” can be viewed now at www.golfdigest.com/courses.

Designed by Pete Dye, The Ocean Course at Kiawah Island, S.C., was selected by Golf Digest as the nation’s toughest course. According to the U.S. Golf Association, The Ocean Course, site of the historic 1991 Ryder Cup and 2012 PGA Championship, has the highest combination of Slope Rating (155) and Course Rating (79.6) of any golf course in the country.

Rounding out the Top 10 of America’s 50 Toughest Courses are: No. 2 The International (The Pines), No. 3 Koolau Golf Club, No. 4 PGA West (Stadium Course), No. 5 Oakmont Country Club, No. 6 Bethpage State Park Golf Courses (Black), No. 7 Tot Hill Farm Golf Club, No. 8 Whistling Straits (Straits), No. 9 Pine Valley Golf Club, No. 10 Tobacco Road Golf Club.

Famed architect Pete Dye created eight of the courses on the list. Thirty-two of America’s 50 Toughest Courses are open to the public and 26 states have courses included. California has the most with five and Florida has four. Hobe Sound, in Florida, is the only facility with two courses included among the 50 Toughest.

The America’s 50 Toughest Golf Courses list was first established as America’s 200 Toughest Courses 41 years ago. The list was determined by a collection of Golf Digest editors who have played—and been “battered and bruised” by—all the courses included in the ranking.


Garland Bayley

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2007, 03:07:23 PM »
Furnace Creek? Although I  did not play it, it didn't look that tough looking in from the outside. What are they rating heat exhaustion?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joel_Stewart

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2007, 03:38:24 PM »
Mike:

Are you guys happy about being ranked #1?   I'm not sure its such a great feat nor can you use it for marketing??   In this day and age, maybe the most fun or prettiest or family freindly but its not fun to get beat up.

Philippe Binette

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2007, 03:57:20 PM »
surprise that crystak downs is not in there...

course record is 67, I think and most good players start with a nice bogey-bogey start and nver get it back to par, from what I've heard and seen

JMorgan

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2007, 03:57:41 PM »
Running out of ideas at Golf Digest... send in the new editorial team stat.  

Garland Bayley

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2007, 04:05:26 PM »
Furnace Creek? Although I  did not play it, it didn't look that tough looking in from the outside. What are they rating heat exhaustion?


Course rating from tips 69.7, slope 117!

Turns out I looked at the text of the article and they are indeed rating heat exhaustion. However, they are making arguments that the high temps will cause the ball not to go as far. I've got news for them. It should roll way far in that kind of heat and how dry the course must be. Guess they can't get past thinking about the aerial game.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 04:14:53 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

SPDB

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 04:05:30 PM »

Hobe Sound, in Florida, is the only facility with two courses included among the 50 Toughest.


The only "Hobe Sound" facility with which I am familiar is Hobe Sound Golf Club, not appearing on this list - a non-descript Joe Lee affair (IIRC). Medalist and Loblolly are both in the town of Hobe Sound, not the "facility."

Nice work.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 04:08:48 PM by SPDB »

John Kavanaugh

Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 04:12:30 PM »
I guess since this is a rating thread I need to respond.  Tobacco Road at number ten is strange considering the knock on it by good players is that it is too easy.

Rochelle Ranch has to be the best bang for the ball busting buck at $22 per round.

Brad Klein

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 04:15:06 PM »
Can somebody help me here? Among the criteria for Golf Digest's +/-800 panelists is "resistance to scoring." So that number is already in the system for all of these courses. Yet this list of the toughest-50 courses is derived by "editors," not by raters. So much for all of that balloting. Do they not trust their own raters? Maybe that's why they are planning to train them.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 04:15:39 PM by Brad Klein »

Garland Bayley

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 04:18:05 PM »
Can somebody help me here? Among the criteria for Golf Digest's +/-800 panelists is "resistance to scoring." So that number is already in the system for all of these courses. Yet this list of the toughest-50 courses is derived by "editors," not by raters. So much for all of that balloting. Do they not trust their own raters? Maybe that's why they are planning to train them.

I'm sorry, but what is the news here? All they have to do is go to the USGA rating database and spew out the result of the query. Then mix in Furnace Creek to see if anyone is paying attention.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Doug Wright

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2007, 04:22:29 PM »
Like the 50 Under $50 from Golf Mag I posted last week, these folks are looking to sell magazines. Stuff like this looks good on the cover.

PS I haven't played it but I haven't heard that Rochelle Ranch is that difficult. I guess like Furnace Creek they are factoring in the weather.  
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 04:23:52 PM by Doug Wright »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

John Kavanaugh

Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2007, 04:28:36 PM »
Like the 50 Under $50 from Golf Mag I posted last week, these folks are looking to sell magazines. Stuff like this looks good on the cover.

PS I haven't played it but I haven't heard that Rochelle Ranch is that difficult. I guess like Furnace Creek they are factoring in the weather.  

I think Rochelle Ranch made that magazine list too.  When is someone besides Matt Ward going to get out there and give us a report.  Check out the menu:  http://www.rochelleranch.com/restbar.htm

Brad Tufts

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2007, 04:29:32 PM »
Kind of a fun exercise, although I have to say, Tot Hill and Tobacco Rd. in the top 10 with The International?

They are 6500 yards, and I thought TR especially wasn't that hard as long as you stayed out of the weeds...not that difficult when the fairways are 60 yards wide...

As for the International, I played the Pines in the Ouimet tournament in Boston a few years ago, and it is quite hard.  The tees we played were the third from back, and were about 6950.  My playing partners and I had fun laughing at how far back the "Tiger tees" were on each hole.  The placement of some of them is absurd, and the course really does set up aesthetically to the tees we played.

One par 3 especially, on the front 9, had the mid-back tees for us playing about 195-200 downhill over a ravine with a pond at the bottom to a green benched half-way up the far hillside.  The tiger tees were about 60 yards behind us, down the hill towards the woods, maybe 10-15 ft. below the crest where our tee was.  So from there, it's 265, completely blind to a rather pretty par 3 surrounded by trouble.  Does that make any sense?

That green mentioned in the article comes at the end of a miles-long par 5, where my 260 yard drive didn't reach the shortest tee box.  The green is as big as a parking lot, with four or five distinct quadrants each larger than a normal green.  We joked that if we had caddies, we'd hear, "well pards you have 127 to the stick, umm...48 to the front...."

The Pines is not a bad course, a bit of a 1960s slog even from the appropriate tees, but Fazio's new Oaks course has given the club quite a lift.  Compared to the Pines it's a gem, but probably at least on the level as Waverly Oaks and Pinehills, maybe close to Red Tail as well.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2007, 04:32:07 PM »
Mike:

Are you guys happy about being ranked #1?   I'm not sure its such a great feat nor can you use it for marketing??   In this day and age, maybe the most fun or prettiest or family freindly but its not fun to get beat up.

Someone's got to have the meanest dog on the block.  It might as well be us... ;D

John Kavanaugh

Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2007, 04:36:53 PM »
Mike:

Are you guys happy about being ranked #1?   I'm not sure its such a great feat nor can you use it for marketing??   In this day and age, maybe the most fun or prettiest or family freindly but its not fun to get beat up.

Someone's got to have the meanest dog on the block.  It might as well be us... ;D

The Ocean Course: Kiawah Island, S.C./ 7,356 Yds/Par 72  And just think...you got 400 or so more yards to stretch it.  I have no problem at all telling people rather proudly that it is the toughest I have ever seen.

Bill Satterfield

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2007, 04:39:30 PM »
Can somebody help me here? Among the criteria for Golf Digest's +/-800 panelists is "resistance to scoring." So that number is already in the system for all of these courses. Yet this list of the toughest-50 courses is derived by "editors," not by raters. So much for all of that balloting. Do they not trust their own raters? Maybe that's why they are planning to train them.

When considering "resistance to scoring" the rating is not intended to just rate how difficult the course is period, they want to know how difficult the course is while still being "fair."  Therefore, courses can actually receive a lower score in that category if the rater feels the course is too difficult/not fair.  Since that is the case they wouldn't be able to simply pull that number from the ratings and make the list since some of the most difficult courses would be marked down.

John Kavanaugh

Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2007, 04:45:11 PM »
I don't think there is any doubt that ANGC from the championship tees needs to be on that list.  I still doubt I could get past the first green with any fewer than five putts.  I'm going to call out whoever wrote the article and say they were scared to include the course because of possible backlash against the magazine.

Bill Satterfield

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2007, 04:48:23 PM »
 
Quote

I think Rochelle Ranch made that magazine list too.  When is someone besides Matt Ward going to get out there and give us a report.  Check out the menu:  http://www.rochelleranch.com/restbar.htm
Quote

I played Rochelle Ranch in the sumer of 2005 and it is VERY difficult.  There was plenty of ground to work with there and so they stretched out the tips to 7925 yards (if I remember right).  The opening "warmup" hole is a 475 yard Par 4 with water running the entire left side of the hole up to the green.  I eagled the 575 yard Par 5 9th hole with a chip in from 50 yards or so which carded me a 37 on the front and it felt like a 33!  The slope and rating is 75.9/136.

What kind of report on that course did you want John?  BTW, that was probably the best hamburger I've ever had when we ate lunch there.  For me, it buried the much over-hyped burger at the Olympic Club.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2007, 04:49:55 PM »
Bill,

How does Golf Digest define "fair?"

Anthony

John Kavanaugh

Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2007, 04:59:03 PM »

Quote

I think Rochelle Ranch made that magazine list too.  When is someone besides Matt Ward going to get out there and give us a report.  Check out the menu:  http://www.rochelleranch.com/restbar.htm
Quote

I played Rochelle Ranch in the sumer of 2005 and it is VERY difficult.  There was plenty of ground to work with there and so they stretched out the tips to 7925 yards (if I remember right).  The opening "warmup" hole is a 475 yard Par 4 with water running the entire left side of the hole up to the green.  I eagled the 575 yard Par 5 9th hole with a chip in from 50 yards or so which carded me a 37 on the front and it felt like a 33!  The slope and rating is 75.9/136.

What kind of report on that course did you want John?  BTW, that was probably the best hamburger I've ever had when we ate lunch there.  For me, it buried the much over-hyped burger at the Olympic Club.

Thanks Bill...All this recent publicitiy should be good for the course.  I have not seen it yet.  The 9 oz. Hamburger Steak, 2 Eggs, Hash Browns and Toast for $7.25 on top of $22 golf may force me to detour next year.  I couldn't get enough of the Olympic burger.

Bill Satterfield

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2007, 05:01:18 PM »
Bill,

How does Golf Digest define "fair?"

Anthony


They don't, they leave that to the rater to decide.  Basic guidelines are given for consideration but nothing concrete.  One focus they have is that the course is "fair" for the scratch golfer; not for tour professionals.  They like a course that can play fairly despite prevailing winds, different weather conditions, and different playings style (bump and runner vs the high flyer).  Like anything regarding reviewing golf course architecture, it is trying to apply one own "scientific" methodology to viewing an architects art.  In the end, it all boils down to individuals opinions of what is good, bad, fair, unfair, etc.  

Tom Birkert

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2007, 05:05:17 PM »
I've only been fortunate enough to play one of the courses (PGA West Stadium).

I don't normally enjoy the prospect of being humiliated, but I actually played pretty well and to my handicap from the plates, which I was pretty chuffed about.

The problem, in my opinion, with tough golf courses, is that you get people playing from entirely the wrong set of tees for their ability, which in turn means rounds of golf which last for a ridiculous length of time.

Brad Klein

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2007, 05:06:09 PM »
Bill Satterfield,

thanks for that explanation, I think. My sense from re-reading your account 4X (I'm not blaming you by the way) is that either the GD criterion that raters normally work with is meaningless; or the alternative standard that the editors have here apparently come up with is simply arbitrary.

Mike_Cirba

Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2007, 05:09:20 PM »
The authors have obviously never played the Orange/Silver combination of nines at Mountain Manor GC in the Poconos.

Many venture out there; few return.

A few others I think merit consideration for brutality;

Landsdowne (Norman) - Virginia
Lighthouse Sound - Maryland
Metedeconk National - NJ
Woodloch Springs - PA

I'd also like to give special mention to Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge which holds the ignominous distinction of simultaneously having a 137 slope rating while playing a whopping 5902 yards from the tips.  

You'll all just have to imagine the golf that's buried deep within that beauty!   ;D
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 05:21:11 PM by MPCirba »

Tom_Doak

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Re:AMERICA’S 50 TOUGHEST GOLF COURSES: GOLF DIGEST
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2007, 06:24:15 PM »
I have not seen the article, but to everyone who keeps saying that they do this stuff "to sell magazines", I think that's a lie now.  They are doing it to sell advertising to those 50 courses.  Nobody's buying the freaking magazine for a list like this.

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