[Mark_Fine]

The other thread on role models seemed to generate some good discussion.  I don't have much time today but I thought it might be interesting to hear people's thoughts about this question.  Hopefully it won't get derailed and it will generate some productive and useful dialogue.  

[TEPaul]

Mark:

Since you're starting all these threads on basically the same subject, it would help if you'd be specific about "role model" clubs being role models in what area.

Obviously one of the most important areas and the one where this all began is in the area of maintenance practices and the cost that some "role model" clubs put into it.

Have you veered away from that particular area because you now realize that role model clubs really don't have a responsibility to the rest of the world of golf in that area?

And if not, then tell us what responsibility you think they do have in that area and what specifically you think they should or can do about it.

[Jay Flemma]

I like pradera, ballyneal and bulls bay.

really nice people.  Really nice atmosphere's.  Great designs.  Great locations...well, Ballyneals a little out of the way, but man what a payoff.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
This thread says nothing about responsibility.  It is what it is - What clubs are good role models?  That role could be in maintenance (I happen to like Somerset Hills in that regard).  Or it could be for tree management or for doing solid restoration work or for a great redesign or what ever anyone thinks is worth talking about.  I'm not sure Augusta National will make the list but I could be wrong.  

[Mike_Young]

 I'm not sure Augusta National will make the list but I could be wrong.  

you may be suprised how willing the supt there is to share.  He will not give private or confidential info but he has been good to a lot of other supts.....

[Joel_Stewart]

A few that come to mind are:

Seminole:  Some may think (Pete Dye including) the green rebuilding was a disaster but I applaud them for not over conditioning which is so prevalent in many of the top clubs.

San Francisco Golf Club:  After 50 or so years they finally decided to restore the 3 lost Tillanghast holes.  Furthermore, they have restored all of the greens.  They have made a few mistakes but all in all they have kept what is best for the course in mind.

Chicago Golf Club:  Trying not to change anything, ever!

NGLA:  Thoughtful restoration after years of leaving things alone.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
There is no hidden agenda here with this post.  I was just wondering what clubs people here thought were good role models?  I mentioned Somerset Hills.  I have always liked that club for many reasons.  For one, I love their approach to the way they keep their golf course.  For such a great club where money is not an object, the course is kept a bit rough around the edges but it is as it should be.  You can take a caddy or walk if you want with a trolley, and no one will give you grief.  The clubhouse is old and rustic and fits perfect with the golf course.  

I think Lehigh set some good examples as well.  Back in the early 1990's it could easily have lost its identity and heritage were it not for a couragous decision by the superintendent and club management.  They had a master plan done by one of the top firms in the country that would have redesigned the course with no regard to Flynn.  Fortunately the plan was tossed out and they went forward with a much lesser know young architect named Ron Forse who had just ventured out on his own but had a passion for older designs.  He wanted nothing more than to restore Flynn.  The decision saved Lehigh as far as I am concerned.  I think that set a good example.  

[Mark_Fine]

Joel,
Great examples.  I second all of them!  
Mark

[Chris Cupit]

Atlanta CC--Mark Esoda, Supt. for his leadership in developing BMPs for golf courses throughout the state in response to serious water issues that exist and will only get worse.

The Honors Course and Supt. David Stone for their "naturalizing" of areas and David's willingness to help anyone in the industry--also he has done some great research at the course and has mentored many existing and aspiring Supt.s

Winged Foot, Oakmont for their tree removal programs.

Hoylake for proving that (1) brown can be beautiful and (2) it (brown--firm and fast) can identify the best golfer in the field.

[Chris Kane]

Royal Melbourne for most of its history.

[James Bennett]

Chris

I was thinking along similar lines with Royal Melbourne, with a thought particularly of Claude Crockford, plus his predecessors.  And Claude's staff.  Golf courses in Australia would not be presented as they are without this heritage.

James B

[Mark_Fine]

James/Chris,
Excellent example.  I beleive Claude was a great inspiration to Ben Crenshaw and surely helped shape Ben's ideas and thoughts regarding golf course design and maintenance.    

[JESII]

With the possible exception of Claude Crockford (and only because I don't know what he did), the only altruistic example brought up yet is Mike Young's inclusion of the Augusta superintendent. All the rest (especially Somerset Hills) seem to practice whatever they see as best for their membership and let it go at that. These are not examples of clubs or people trying to move the dial with respect to how the game is played and presented.

I have never been to Lehigh so I cannot comment on any of it. I can ask however, if the decision was so courageous, was it made with a greater good in mind, or did they choose Ron because he believed in the Flynn "bones" of the course and that that was best for the Lehigh membership, and eventually the decision makers saw the wisdom of that?

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
I'm not sure any of us are talking about or providing examples of altruism here.  We were just listing examples of clubs that for what ever reason, have set good examples.  I don't know why Somerset Hills for example spends what it spends on its golf course.  Maybe next time I'm over I will ask the question so we don't have to speculate.  

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
Regarding Lehigh; the members (John's number was 95% or more of them), never even heard of Flynn let alone that he designed their golf course.  The decision in my mind was courageous in that the club had already paid a lot of money for a MP done by a top designer.  The plan was ready to go yet they decided to throw it out because a small group of them had a feeling that their course history and this guy named Flynn might be worth looking into before a big decison like this is made.  They had no idea what was better for their membership.  How could they know with the information they had in front of them?  If anything, they might have leaned toward the first MP as it was done by a big name architect which carried credibility.   Did they make the right decision?  In my mind they did.  Was it courageous?  Ask the guys who made the decision.  Did they set a good example for a classic golf course?  Yes.  Did they do it for the greater good of golf.  Not likely but who knows for sure.  You should come play it and draw your own conclusion  

[Paul_Turner]

I think the R&A are trying to present the British Open as a role model for clubs.  They really have let the courses burn out in recent years and they have published articles on returning to less manicured, cheaper maintenance.

[Stan Dodd]

Panmure Golf Club for taking seriously a role as custodian of the game, for promoting junior play and interanational camraderie.  For the restoration and maintenece of a true links course.  Undertaking a serious tree removal program.

[Joel_Stewart]

Mark:
What about Cherry Hills?   I've only played it once, maybe 7 years ago so haven't seen any changes but thought it was pretty special.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I like clubs that value and preserve their traditions, on and off the golf course, that run a tight ship.

[RSLivingston_III]

Maybe Mr. Doak will comment on this, but from what I understand Crystal Downs has been trying to get as close to the original design as possible.

[Jim Franklin]

How about CPC? They have not succumbed to technology and added an additional 1000 yards.

[Glenn Spencer]

In this day and age. I would like to think that Hazeltine is a wonderful role model. I know that it was the stated goal of the club, but hosting a lot of tournaments, professional and amateur, mens and womens should be commended. The same goes for The Honors Course. Holston Hills is a great role model as far as maintaining the design.

[Mark_Fine]

Paul,
I think that is great and an excellent example of what I am talking about.  

Stan,
I assume you are talking about the golf club in Scotland?   I am curious; has what Panmure has done, influenced in a positive way others to follow?  

Joel,
I think they are doing what is best for their club and their membership and the net result should at the same time be good for the game of golf.  They surely are aware of their influence.  

Patrick,
No arguement here.

Sean,
Also good examples.  I don't know much about Painswick or Notts but I know a little about Swinley Forest and couldn't agree more.  

Ralph,
One of my favorite golf courses though I could not tell you how much has changed over the years or what they are doing about it.  Maybe Tom will chime in.  

Jim,
Hope you had fun in Phoenix.  Good point about CPC.  They don't have unlimited room to extend tees but they could put in some longer back tees if they wanted to.  I suspect they have held back on the temptation recognizing that the course still holds plenty of challenge for their membership.  

Glenn,
Interesting comment about Hazeltine.  Regarding The Honors Course; Jack Lupton's club provides a great role model for amateur golfers.  It was built to honor amateur golf and the people who play it.  Holston Hills I have seen many photos of, but not yet been down to play it     I know it is a great design.  Do you know how it has influenced other clubs in the area?

 

[JESII]

Jim,
I'm not sure any of us are talking about or providing examples of altruism here.  We were just listing examples of clubs that for what ever reason, have set good examples.  

Mark,

I understand you prefer to take your conversations off-line, but if you're going to stay on-line at least show the rest of us some decency and not talk out of both ends like this...

...I have long believed that prominent golf clubs have a role to play in the world of golf (outside their own grounds).[/i]  Other clubs watch (and often try to follow) what they do...These clubs are the leaders and leaders lead by their example.  

...

In [his] statement Hewlett focuses on his company’s impact to others.  I tend to think that this statement applies to certain golf clubs (maybe many golf clubs) as well.[/i]  They are also organizations and many represent the long standing history and traditions of this great game.

Apparently some here think that club's should not worry about their influence on others.  It is not their concern.  I’m not sure Mr. Hewlett would agree, nor do I.  Thoughts anyone?  

As I've heard through IM, many on here would appreciate that...

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
Were those posts of mine from this thread?  If they were I apologize.  But if you want to talk about altruism, fine.  Do any of the above examples represent that?  Are they thinking about the impact of their decision on the game outside their own property lines?

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