Can the back nine of ANGC still be considered "Great" for tournament golf?

[Tom Zeni]

Tom Zeni,

I don't view the hole as weak.

I don't think the golf course has a weak hole, some are just easier than othes.

You're playing a semantics game. It's a weak hole. It's only saving grace is the serverly sloped green. You can't back #9 tee box any further or you'll run into the downhill #2. As such, the way the course runs, everyone can reach the bottom of the hill. A player only has "no shot" when they try to cut the corner and fail to do so.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I wish they wouldn't have added trees, especially on 11, 15, and 18.  (The trees in play on 18: don't remember if they actually added trees on 18 or if it was the change in location of the tee, but one of those things definitely brought the trees in play.)  It seems like it's encouraged more conservative play. 18 looks like an evergreen chute with a big sand pile at the end.

These are just impressions, don't have any stats, but it seems like there's a lot more laying up on 15, and 18 feels more like a "hang-on," play-it-conservative hole, whereas before even when golfers were in the wrong place they might still make the wrong decision and go for it.

Does the back second nine demand fewer difficult decisions today?  Have the changes taken some of the mental ciphering out of the equation? Would Tom Weiskopf today have occasion to say, "If I knew the way he [Nicklaus] thought..."

For all the changes, the second nine still tends to produce the most-compelling spectating in golf, but I would say not as much as it used to.

[Jim Nugent]

Tiger, at least, takes 3-wood to lay up short of the bunker nowadays, whereas he tended to hit driver before they added the length.  Remember the bomb he hit in the last round the year he completed the Tiger Slam?  Inside of a 100 yards as I recall.  So the length has caused him to change tactics.  Even laying up short of the bunkers leaves him with 6 to 8-iron approach, which is better than a lob wedge I guess.

In 1961 Arnie hammered his drive and was left with a 6-iron, as I recall.  The hole played 405 then?  And Tiger can hit 3-wood, 8-iron with the hole at 465?  

Shows how even with the added length, even with the extra bunkers and rough, ANGC plays nothing like it did several decades ago.  

[BCrosby]

The 9th is a very interesting hole. It's a counter-intuitive hole in some respects. Because of the slope and angle of the green, hitting it to the right side of the fw to open up the green may be the wrong play. Your approach is more likely to suck off the green on that angle. Approaching the green from the wrong (left) side reduces that risk somewhat.

Tom Zeni - I attend the Masters pretty regularly. Everyone does not hit to the bottom of the 9th.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Zemi,

# 9 is far from being a weak hole.
It's not just the slope of the green that presents a dileman, it's the angle and the fronting bunker.

Drives that aren't perfect have a downhill/sidehill or uphill/sidehill lie.

Having watch Vijah and others leave drives out to the right over the last week, I can assure you that a drive hit right will find trouble.

The tee has been brought back further and the hole may play beyond the 460 on the card.

Mark,

I don't recall any trees being added at # 18.
At 460 uphill, I don't know that I'd label the prefered play of that hole as conservative.  It's a challenging finishing hole.

Jim Nugent,

Don't forget that Greg Norman hit a 4-iron into that green not that long ago, took a bogie and lost the tournament on the final day.

And, it's not just that these guys were hitting 8-irons or wedges, it's that they were hitting them from uphill lies to a highly elevated green.

[Phil Benedict]

Patrick,

Your reference to Norman was 1986.  I think he hit 3-wood off the tee to take the bunkers out of play, and was criticized for leaving himself so far back on his second shot.  It was a conservative tactic for such a great driver of the ball.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick,

By conservative I meant the repositioning of the tees seems to have led golfers to change strategy and not challenge the left-hand bunkers.  It seems like the new strategy is just hit a 3-wood down the chute for position and a mid / short iron in, as Phil Benedict mentioned with Tiger.

Mickelson, too. From 2004 press conference:
Q. Did you play 18 exactly the same way today as you had the first three days in terms of club selection?

PHIL MICKELSON: For the most part, yes. I hit 3-wood Thursday, Friday and Sunday. Yesterday I hit driver because there was a bit of breeze in. But it's just a good 3-wood. I think it's 310 to the bunker, and I can't hit that up the hill past 300.

The hole did need to be lengthened -- no more sand wedges -- but what would you think if they pruned back the left-hand tree line? Would more golfers hit driver and / or try to hit a big fade over / around those bunkers? (I think it's the first fade they have to hit since something like the fifth hole, a huge challenge under pressure.)  Maybe in addition move those bunkers a little closer to the tee, to entice golfers to take the chance.

Mark

[Phil Benedict]

Does the tee shot on 11 call for a fade with the new trees?

[BCrosby]

No. The new trees make it so tight that working the ball either way doesn't make much sense and from the new back tees they can't drive past the trees.

Bob

[Mark Bourgeois]

They also moved the tee over to the right, yes?

Bob, with the tees and trees, would you say players are going for some kind of left-to-right action, however much they can get?

I would say in answer to Phil that it does favor a fade now, albeit a baby one, whereas before it was a hook.

The spectating on 11 is not as good as it used to be, is it Bob?  Watching a lot of balls from "nowhere" flying out the trees and over that hill...

[Phil Benedict]

So the optimal shaping off the tee shots on the back 9 for a right hand player is:

10-  Sweeping draw
11-  Neutral to soft cut
13-  Sweeping draw
14-  Draw
15-  Draw with the tee moved to the left
17-  Neutral
18-  Fade

It's always been known as a hookers' course. On the front 2 and 9 favor a draw but I'm not sure about the other holes.  3 and 7 are pretty straightaway.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Phil,

Sure about 15?

Mark

[BCrosby]

They also moved the tee over to the right, yes?

The spectating on 11 is not as good as it used to be, is it Bob?  Watching a lot of balls from "nowhere" flying out the trees and over that hill...

The new tee is so far behind the old tee that it's hard to see it from the old tee.  If they moved it to the right, it's so slight that it's hard to tell.

For the Masters they rope off the fairway behind the trees so spectating is difficult. The best spot for viewing the 11th is probably to set up shop behind the 12th tee.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bob,

That's what I meant -- it's hard to see as much of the play on 11 from the grandstands, even if you're sitting on the left.

Mark

[Jim Nugent]

Phil, my memory is that Norman hit an iron off the last tee.  It wasn't 1986, though.  Happened later.  Was an overcast day, and the course may have been wet.  I remember almost screaming out loud when I saw him pull the iron out of the bag.  He blew so many tournaments with poor mental decisions.  

[Phil Benedict]

Phil, my memory is that Norman hit an iron off the last tee.  It wasn't 1986, though.  Happened later.  Was an overcast day, and the course may have been wet.  I remember almost screaming out loud when I saw him pull the iron out of the bag.  He blew so many tournaments with poor mental decisions.  

I think you are right about hitting an iron.  Not sure it was '86.
The interesting thing is that in this case the notionally conservative play - choosing the shorter club off the tee - was the wrong one.  Tiger does this a lot (ie lay back, not make the wrong choice) but his iron play from 175-200 yards is phenomenally good, whereas his driving accuracy is a relative weakness.  Norman's strength was driving the ball so there is no excuse for leaving the driver in the bag under those circumstances.  

[Jim Nugent]

It's always been known as a hookers' course.

Interesting that Nicklaus generally faded the ball.  Did he change his strategy at the Masters?    

[Gary Daughters]

Phil, Dan and Chris,

Definitely not "weak" in terms of easy.  But the lengthening of the hole, while it took the sand wedge out of Tiger's hands, also removed club selection as an issue on the tee.  Who can forget Tom Lehman's regrettable 1-iron?

OK, the drive through the chute (in particular) and the Olympus-like climb to the green are great theatre, especially on TV.  

And please note that I said weakest on that given course.. being #18 at ANGC is much to live up to.

But since you guys asked and at the expense of sounding petty, the narrowness of the landing area contrasts, and I would say negatively so, with much of the rest of the course.  The approach, longer now for sure, doesn't jump out and challenge a skill set in the way some others at ANGC do.  The green isn't as special as those at #1, #2, #3, #4, #5..., and the areas around it don't seem to get a tremendous amount of action or produce that much drama.

On drama, what memorable Masters moments have occurred at #18?  Not Tiger winning his first major or Mickelson doing same... those don't count.  But what on the order of (from my own memory and history).. Crenshaw's putt at 10.. Mize's chip at 11.. Weiskopf's meltdown at 12 .. Billy Joe Patton at 13.. Sarazan at 15 .. Nicklaus , Tiger , Norman at 16.. Nicklaus's '86 putt at 17 (and what the heck, "body bags")?

As for 18, I just don't feel the love.

So gimme a cigarette.. let the execution begin.

[Jeff Peterson]

... wish they wouldn't have added trees, especially on 11, 15, and 18.

11 was such an elegant hole before those trees.  One of my favorite memories from my one and only Masters visit was sitting on the hill between 11 and 12 and taking in the panoramic view of the guys hitting their second shots from the top of the hill down to that dangerous green.  With the trees, I suspect that majestic view doesn't even exist anymore.

[Phil Benedict]

Jim Nugent,

In the 60's there was an article in Sports Illustrated about how Jack had messed up his game by developing a hook for Augusta.  Obviously he figured out a way to do this without contaminating his game for the other 51 weeks of the year.  So yes - Jack played a hook where needed at Augusta.  I wonder if the same was true of Hogan?

The interesting thing about Augusta - as least as it appears to me on TV - is that some of those tee shots (10, 13) require a pretty sharp right-to-left curve, not just a soft draw.

Gary Daughters,

Thank you for the architectural critique of the 18th.  Many threads ago Tom Doak said he didn't like the hole and I have always wondered why, given its notoriety. The fairway bunkers took the width out of the hole.  The left used to be very safe but not the best angle.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jeff,

Re 11 it's not so much the trees, although they're an issue, as the length.  The players are hitting second shots from back up the hill. It's hard to take in the sweep of the hole.

Although I did see all of KJ Choi's eagle on 11, from something like 220 (5-iron), back in 2004...

Mark

[Phil Benedict]

Jeff,

Re 11 it's not so much the trees, although they're an issue, as the length.  The players are hitting second shots from back up the hill. It's hard to take in the sweep of the hole.

Although I did see all of KJ Choi's eagle on 11, from something like 220 (5-iron), back in 2004...

Mark

Last year, as in 2005, they were unable to finish the third round on Saturday.  Tiger comes out on Sunday and promptly birdies 10.  The Tiger suck ups at CBS go into full flight, with Nance leading the charge.  Then Tiger dumps his second into the pond on 11 from a fair bit back up the hill, which definitely stalled his momentum.  That is one tough hole now - hard drive and hard second shot.

[Mark Bourgeois]

That hole is bailout after bailout. The stroke average runs something like 4.4...guess they succeeded in adding another gambling par 5 to the back!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

# 18 has been lengthened since 2004.

It's now 460+, up hill and the shoot is effectively narrower as you go further back.

Phil,

In 1986 # 18 was considerably shorter than it's present length.

Norman, recalling the 18th hole indicated that he tried to hit a 3/4 4 iron instead of a full 5-iron, and that's what caused him to leak the approach to the right.

[Kalen Braley]

Leak to the right is being a bit kind.

As memory serves it was about 50 yards right.  And I thought it was a 6 iron he hit on that shot?