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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Role Models?
« on: February 04, 2007, 09:28:10 AM »
Maybe it is my business background coming through, but I have long believed that prominent golf clubs have a role to play in the world of golf (outside their own grounds).  Other clubs watch (and often try to follow) what they do.  When Oakmont starting taking down trees, many other clubs followed.  Restoration became a big movement, in part because many top clubs were doing it and leading the way.  These clubs are the leaders and leaders lead by their example.  

William Hewlett, co-founder of Hewlett-Packard once stated:
 
“As I look back on my life’s work, I’m probably most proud of having helped to create a company that by virtue of its values, practices, and success has had a tremendous impact on the way companies are managed around the world.  And I’m particularly proud that I’m leaving behind an ongoing organization that can live on as a role model long after I’m gone.”  

In that statement Hewlett focuses on his company’s impact to others.  I tend to think that this statement applies to certain golf clubs (maybe many golf clubs) as well.  They are also organizations and many represent the long standing history and traditions of this great game.

Apparently some here think that club's should not worry about their influence on others.  It is not their concern.  I’m not sure Mr. Hewlett would agree, nor do I.  Thoughts anyone?  



Kyle Harris

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2007, 09:40:29 AM »
I don't agree. A club looking for a role model is doomed to failure and trouble. I think it's an especially large indictment of the membership that they can't assess themselves and what they want and value and need to look outside of their membership to find it.

If they wanted more outside influence, they wouldn't have memberships. To me, such chicanery is a contradiction to the word: club.

Maybe the fact that the clubs that are taking the lead and having others follow should tell you something. I don't see Oakmont or Augusta looking for role models. I see them assessing their needs and acting on it.

I think Hewitt's remarks were remarkably short-sighted as well. If his model and ideals where so revolutionary, Carly Fiorna wouldn't have run the company into the ground. It's the person that makes the difference, not the model.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 09:41:48 AM by Kyle Harris »

TEPaul

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2007, 10:06:53 AM »
I don't agree either. Of course is would be nice and certainly altruistic if they were that way but they aren't. To think they should be or will be is unrealistic. What golf club has ever made decisions of what to do on their golf course primarily for the way it's going to affect golf generally and other clubs? None that I can think of. They do what they do for their own reasons, period.

Mark, I can certainly see a businessman saying that about his company because businesses all have something to sell, not the least thing being the reputation of the company. I doubt the decisions made about how to maintain the Pine Valleys, Oakmonts and Merions are made on the basis of how its going to sell to the public or other golf clubs.

Oakmont's tree removal did have a pretty big effect with other clubs and I think it's very positive but I doubt Oakmont launched into that program to influence other clubs or made any decision on that basis. They did it for their very own reasons, and that was to return the course to its look at the end of the life and career of W.C. Fownes.

Matter of fact, I know the guy who basically launched the club into that program or really got it rolling. You want me to ask him what the decision to do that was based on? He does realize what Oakmont did has influenced others but I doubt he'd say that had anything to do with why they decided to do it in the first place, which by the way was pretty controversial within the club when they began, to say the least.

If any of us are speaking to clubs or their committees I think the best thing to do is to explain to them that they need to take responsibility for running and maintaining their own course the way they want with the available resources they have and not tell them that the problems they have or will have are because some other course that can spend more money than they can is irresponsibly setting a bad example for them.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 10:12:50 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2007, 10:48:08 AM »
I am glad that you clearly defined your thinking.  We knew what you were getting at.  You know I disagree completely, Mr. Hewlett or Mr. Packard aside.

What are you advocating?  That a club that has the means, the will, the ground and architecture to maintain their course for the betterment of their members should consider the possible influence they have on other clubs and forgo their course's potential for fear of what it might do to clubs that don't have the same dynamics in play?  That is completely nuts.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2007, 12:15:18 PM »
The band of three stick together once again  ;D  Let me ask a few questions:

1) Do the actions of the top clubs have an influence on others?  

2) Should they care about their influence or should they just worry about themselves?  

3) Can (not should) golf clubs be role models?  





Kyle Harris

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2007, 12:29:09 PM »
The band of three stick together once again  ;D  Let me ask a few questions:

1) Do the actions of the top clubs have an influence on others?  

2) Should they care about their influence or should they just worry about themselves?  

3) Can (not should) golf clubs be role models?  

1. Yes
2. Care about themselves
3. Yes

wsmorrison

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2007, 12:37:25 PM »
Mark,

My responses have already answered these questions.  We are not a coordinated band of three.  We are three individuals that are on the same side of an issue...the opposite side of yours  ;)

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2007, 12:41:28 PM »
Mark,
  I don't agree with the orginal post at all. Each club needs to act like it's own entity. Granted, each club with always be compared to the club next door, but for one club to look to another as a role model is bogus....as an example, maybe. Top clubs like Oakmont, Winged Foot, Merion owe nothing to other clubs to keep with tradition of any sort either. To each their own. Golf clubs should take after Charles Barkley when he was once reported saying during his playing days-"I AM NOT A ROLE MODEL!"  ;D

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 12:42:13 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

wsmorrison

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2007, 12:55:02 PM »
I was thinking of exactly the same example...Sir Charles.  Good one, Tony.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2007, 12:59:08 PM »
Spoken like true Americans - ME ME ME  ;D

Tony,
What is the difference between a "role model" and someone who sets "an example"?  Can't they be the same?  Would it help if I changed the title of the thread to "Examples"?  Also, thank goodness everyone in a prominant position doesn't take the Charles Barkley stance and just thinks about themselves and not the consequences of their actions on others.  

Wayne,
I've just never seen you guys disagree so I thought you were all together  ;)

Kyle,
Your answer to the second question speaks loud and clear.   I guess we all are entitled to our opinions.

Yes each club needs to do what they think is best for their golf club.  But at the same time, certain clubs need (maybe should is a better word) understand that they are in a position of influence and their actions will impact others.  

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 01:10:40 PM »
Mark,
  I shouldn't have to even explain this-Take Oakmont for example-In the mid to late 90's 1000,s of trees were removed, started by former superintendent Mark Kuhns and continued with current superintendent, John Zimmers. Now when this tree removal was happening, do you really think that the powers at Oakmont were worried about what "Club X" down the street was going to think of them? Not a chance. I use the word "example" as just that. A club down the street or accross the country could use Oakmont as an example as for the positives of tree removal-better turf conditions, better air movement, etc...I know thatLong Cove did, but in no way shape or form does LC hope to be like or look up to Oakmont as their role model. LC has their own agenda, their own goals and their own plan that they are following, not waiting for Oakmont to make their next move. That's what every club should be like-Some clubs do have the money, the man power, the type of course to even be like an Oakmont, Merion, Winged Foot-They should just stick to their own agenda.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 01:11:47 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Kyle Harris

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 01:12:10 PM »
Spoken like true Americans - ME ME ME  ;D

Tony,
What is the difference between a "role model" and someone who sets "an example"?  Can't they be the same?  Would it help if I changed the title of the thread to "Examples"?  Also, thank goodness everyone in a prominant position doesn't take the Charles Barkley stance and just thinks about themselves and not the consequences of their actions on others.  

Wayne,
I've just never seen you guys disagree so I thought you were all together  ;)

Kyle,
Your answer to the second question speaks loud and clear.   I guess we all are entitled to our opinions.

Yes each club needs to do what they think is best for their golf club.  But at the same time, certain clubs need (maybe should is a better word) understand that they are in a position of influence and their actions will impact others.  

Mark,

I love how someone with absolutely no stake in the operations or direction of an entity feels the need to exercise control over that entity. Please, your attitude contradicts the very definition, nature, and meaning of a golf club.

Frankly, if you came poking around a place I put up 5 digits of initiation fees and yearly dues with that attitude, you wouldn't be conscious to remember leaving the property.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2007, 01:20:59 PM »
Kyle,
Sorry but I'm not following you  :(  
We'll agree to disagree.  

TEPaul

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 01:47:00 PM »
"Spoken like true Americans - ME ME ME   ;D

Mark:

On an issue and subject like this particular one that is probably not a very good place to take this discussion about what private golf courses do.

It seems your suggestion on here is in the vein of what really is wrong here with some clubs trying to copy what others do when they should know themselves they can't afford it is----"It's always someone else's fault but my own."    ;)

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2007, 01:57:10 PM »
Tom,
I agree with you.  It is not the fault of leader as much as the ones who try to follow them.  But many do try to follow and that was one of my points.    

Unfortunately I have to cut out as I just found out that the father of one of my best friends was just killed in a car accident.   I've enjoyed the discussion but this kind of thing puts it all in perspective.

Have fun if anyone elects to continue.
Mark

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2007, 02:05:39 PM »
Mark, I do agree with you that in the restoration movement, that leading by example to be one of the truest sources of inspriation. Certainly Huntington Valley would be one that has led by example and many who are particpating on this thread have long trumpted it's praises.

However, I do think  what they are saying--or at least what I think they are saying--that each club should have it's own identity is vitally important. Right now, I'm thinking of certain private clubs here in LA which think that they should be following anotther particular private club's lead.

I keep on telling many of these clubs, YOU should be leading, not following, that others should be inspired from your actions to look at their OWN house and see if it's in order. To me this is where they should be more in tune with what is going on instead of constantly following the lead's of others and trying to copy that and tripping over themselves time and time again. What's good for one course might not be good for another and the insistence of using a certain architect because he was lucky to get into one particular noteworthy course and ended-up botching it up for the entire line-up of them here in SoCal.

This particular architect used that to his fullest on his resume and frankly speaking the golf courses are just as further away from their storied history because of it.

Scott Witter

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2007, 02:21:33 PM »
An example or a role model...call it what you want, and perhaps it is just human nature to often look over your shoulder and see what the other guy is doing, well except if you are Merion, Pine Valley, Oakmont, or take Tiger Woods, Or Nicklaus, and begin to think, hummm, should I be doing that? is that better for me?

"A club looking for a role model is doomed to failure and trouble. I think it's an especially large indictment of the membership that they can't assess themselves and what they want and value and need to look outside of their membership to find it."

Kyle, I don't totally disagree/agree with your statement, but when a club doesn't have a good understanding of their status in the market, this happens a lot, and to assist them with gaging a direction to take, they look over their shoulder.  It may be the wrong approach to take, sure, but nevertheless, Club A does have a significant influence, they set and example and maybe without intentionally doing so, they become a role model to many other clubs in their market.  No, they were not trying to be a role model, but it happens and I think IMO, that Mark is simply acknowledging that this does happen and should the Big clubs be more aware of it?

"Maybe the fact that the clubs that are taking the lead and having others follow should tell you something. I don't see Oakmont or Augusta looking for role models. I see them assessing their needs and acting on it."

Here again, this is leadership, perhaps not by intention, since as you imply and I agree, ANGC, Oakmont and the others don't care what anyone else is doing, but that isn't the point.  These clubs are leaders, just as Tiger and Jack Nicklaus are leaders and clearly role models, whether or not they want to be.

I don't have a position on it one way or another, but I believe it does exist, for good or bad and it is something that does come into play IMO on the attitude and approach regarding maintenence and the related costs.

"If any of us are speaking to clubs or their committees I think the best thing to do is to explain to them that they need to take responsibility for running and maintaining their own course the way they want with the available resources they have and not tell them that the problems they have or will have are because some other course that can spend more money than they can is irresponsibly setting a bad example for them."

Tom: I think most architects, supers and other influential individuals in the industry are doing just this, but even so, human nature is strong and how many of us have and will continue to do so, live beyond our means, just to keep up peers, with little care, denial if you want, that we really shouldn't be doing so.

Guy Phelan

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2007, 03:08:14 PM »
Mark,

I have referred back to this thread many times because I find it interesting that you brought it up. Good for you! As a member of the doyen of Maryland golf courses, Five Farms, I have never encountered us doing anything besides what we believe to be in the best interest of our club and our golf course(s).

When you are the “leader,” either recognized at the local, state, national or international level, many others will imitate your moves. However, that is only because you have proven through time that you tend to make solid decisions. We are constantly reviewed by our peers and methodologies are copied. I also know that we go out of our way to assist other clubs in setting a good direction for their future. But ultimately, it is their decisions, just as much as it is ours.

Once again, I applaud you for bringing this subject to the fore.

All the best,
Guy

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2007, 03:22:47 PM »
The general role of top golf clubs being looked to as models for others in the area is certainly true, architecturally as well as for maintenance trends.  The look of bunkers, for example, has always evolved toward the look of the Alpha dog in town ... nearly all of the bunkers in Philly have "white faces" because that's what Merion had, nearly all of the bunkers in Chicago are big and blobby because that's what Medinah has.  Rough, tree plantings, irrigation systems are all copied from one club to the next.


On another tack, this is the second time in recent weeks that I've heard Oakmont described as the forerunner of removing trees.  When exactly did they start taking them down?

The USGA Green Section has been on that bandwagon for at least 15 years now, maybe 20.

I do remember how hard it was to convince clubs like Garden City Golf Club and Onwentsia to start taking down trees ... but that was in the early 1990's.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2007, 05:45:31 PM »
I don't agree. A club looking for a role model is doomed to failure and trouble. I think it's an especially large indictment of the membership that they can't assess themselves and what they want and value and need to look outside of their membership to find it.

If they wanted more outside influence, they wouldn't have memberships. To me, such chicanery is a contradiction to the word: club.

Maybe the fact that the clubs that are taking the lead and having others follow should tell you something. I don't see Oakmont or Augusta looking for role models. I see them assessing their needs and acting on it.

I think Hewitt's remarks were remarkably short-sighted as well. If his model and ideals where so revolutionary, Carly Fiorna wouldn't have run the company into the ground. It's the person that makes the difference, not the model.

Oh Kyle, c'mon.  No man is an island ;)

I wish it were not always the case but without doubt, certain clubs absolutely have the position of role model.  While I agree it is not always wise to follow their lead it's not honest to act like their influence is not there.

The leaders in the industry (not unlike professional athletes or movie stars) are role models whether they want to be or not.  They can scream all they want about not wanting to be a role model (Charles Barkley--and he does make an excellent point that parents not athletes should be role modles) BUT for all kinds of reasons, leaders will always be role models.

I am not saying that leaders in industry are responsible for other's mistakes that they may make in trying to emulate their heroes, but the leaders should not be so callous as to think that their actions either go unnoticed or are without consequence.



 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2007, 06:01:11 PM »
Mark,
Couple of things.....from what I have seen in golf clubs...relating to your mention of business...business logic and models are usually out the window...guys that would be solid business people look at their golf course in an entirely different light.
I do not think clubs should be role models.....but I do think there is a trickle down effect in golf clubs which is influenced by equipment innovations, irrigation and newer supt talent and education.....for example Paul Latshaw created the first lightweight fairway mower by welding reels on an old ToroG3 greensmower.....that type machine is now common for many golf courses even if they don't have the budget of the top tier courses.  And we could go on......I think it is no different than someone like Mercedes coming out with airbags and they trickle down to the honda......I am glad this type of trickle down occurs....of course there are things such as USGA greens where many smaller clubs feel that just acquiring such because the bigger clubs have them wil give them better results......
The nice thing we are seeing in golf right now is that when the time comes that golf has to justify itself and not be subsidized it will find a way or either go away.....
From the way I understand your "role model" issue it would go against the free enterprise model of competition....IMO
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kyle Harris

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2007, 07:46:39 PM »
I don't agree. A club looking for a role model is doomed to failure and trouble. I think it's an especially large indictment of the membership that they can't assess themselves and what they want and value and need to look outside of their membership to find it.

If they wanted more outside influence, they wouldn't have memberships. To me, such chicanery is a contradiction to the word: club.

Maybe the fact that the clubs that are taking the lead and having others follow should tell you something. I don't see Oakmont or Augusta looking for role models. I see them assessing their needs and acting on it.

I think Hewitt's remarks were remarkably short-sighted as well. If his model and ideals where so revolutionary, Carly Fiorna wouldn't have run the company into the ground. It's the person that makes the difference, not the model.

Oh Kyle, c'mon.  No man is an island ;)

I wish it were not always the case but without doubt, certain clubs absolutely have the position of role model.  While I agree it is not always wise to follow their lead it's not honest to act like their influence is not there.

The leaders in the industry (not unlike professional athletes or movie stars) are role models whether they want to be or not.  They can scream all they want about not wanting to be a role model (Charles Barkley--and he does make an excellent point that parents not athletes should be role modles) BUT for all kinds of reasons, leaders will always be role models.

I am not saying that leaders in industry are responsible for other's mistakes that they may make in trying to emulate their heroes, but the leaders should not be so callous as to think that their actions either go unnoticed or are without consequence.
 

Chris,

I'm not denying the fact that golf courses don't act as role models in certain positions, nor am I debating the fact that other courses peak over the fence to try to "keep up with the Joneses," or Mackenzies, as the case may be.

However, Mark seems to say that the golf club itself should be aware, and act with responsibility because, of this impact and for me, that's just too much.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 07:47:13 PM by Kyle Harris »

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role Models?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2007, 07:52:28 PM »
Seems to me that leading clubs need to realize the effect they have on other clubs.

Read "It's Only A Game," by Jackie Burke, Jr. He has it about right, in my opinion. One of the points he makes is that clubs need to open there doors to top flight amateur competition. The "closed gates" clubs, as he calls them, shirk their responsibility to support the game in this way.

How many clubs turn down opportuinities to host city, county, state, regional, and national competitions because the "top" local club doesn't permit them?

The question, it seems to me, is not so much that top clubs should mow their greens at 3/16 so that all others will follow suit, but that they should be aware of the effect of doing so.

Its also probably true that a club that would do something only because a rival club does it probably lacks something in its culture and self image.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

TEPaul

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2007, 07:09:53 AM »
Mark:

I'm certainly not saying that some clubs aren't role models---some definitely are.

What I'm saying is clubs that emulate those role-model clubs and make mistakes in doing so have only themselves to blame.

This whole new "firm and fast" fascination is one area that some real mistakes can be made and have been made trying to emulate the likes of Merion, Pine Valley, Aronimink and Oakmont in this general region.

But I believe that a top flight super like Merion's Shaeffer accepts some responsibility by explaining to others how to avoid making mistakes in that area.

But the key is those other clubs probably have to have enough ingenuity and foresight to call him (and some others of the well-known firm and fast guys around here) and ask for advice if they're remotely thinking of emulating something Merion does or HVGC does. He's a pretty busy guy you know.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 07:17:14 AM by TEPaul »

wsmorrison

Re:Role Models?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2007, 09:00:18 AM »
It doesn't sound like Eagle Scout talk if you ask me  :-\