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Tim Kratz

Dismal River
« on: February 02, 2007, 07:01:19 PM »
Dismal River continues to generate significant interest on this site.  There has been a good deal of intelligent conversation (e.g., Matt Ward’s detailed review) and some ridiculous and false statements regarding dirt moving.   On yet another cold and snowy day in Denver, I finally have the time to put together some admittedly biased thoughts on the course in which I hold a some ownership interest.  

THE DIRT DEBATE:  First, I’m not sure the topic of dirt moving merits much additional discussion, but let me say unequivocally that very little dirt was moved to construct the course.    On one hole on the back nine, we brought down the side of a small hill in order to create sight lines to the green.  Don’t ask how many cubic feet or yards of dirt that was.  I’m no expert on dirt measurements, and, frankly, I’m not all that interested.   I know it wasn’t enough to cost us much money.  That did interest me.  Also, quite a few bunkers were added, and many others were shaped.  Many others were left exactly as they were found the first day we set foot on the land.  Other than that, no significant dirt was moved.  In particular, almost nothing was done to any of the green sites.  

We (the owners) were adamant on this issue, and Jack and Chris Cochran felt the exact same way.  I’ve been utterly amazed that some people who post on this site refuse to accept this as true.  I’m not sure it really matters all that much.  A great course is great, whether it was discovered or constructed.  But the truth is that Dismal River is an extremely natural layout.  Believe me, we couldn’t have done it any other way even if we wanted to.  

THE GOLF:   I think the course is superb.   I would rank it with Sand Hills, Royal Dornoch, Pacific Dunes, and Cruden Bay as my personal favorites.  The course is a worthy compliment to Sand Hills (which I have played more than 50 times).  I think they both merit ratings in the upper tier of the U.S. and the World (which Sand Hills already has), though I don’t pretend to be qualified to judge.  Though the terrain at Dismal has much the same feel, the two courses are quite different.  I look forward to playing Ballyneal this year, and  I’m confident that it will be very high on my personal list as well.    

The setting is stunning – one of  the most the most dramatic course I’ve seen or played.   Almost every hole provides spectacular views.  Every fairway and green ripples with movement.   Like Sand Hills, there is a powerful sense of isolation which adds to the drama.  There are no distractions near the golf.  No roads, power lines, structures of any kind.  No cart girl.   No returning nine.  Cell phones don’t work.  If you don’t have a caddy the first time you play, good luck.  You’ll be lost.  At times, you have views of other golf holes from the hole you are playing, but no hole is particularly close to another (though the tee to green distances are manageable), and it almost always feels like you are alone on the course.  You really begin to appreciate the incredible land in this unique part of the country, particularly if you actually stay on the land for a night or two and take your time.  I always came back from my trips to Sand Hills feeling refreshed and rejuvenated.  I feel the same after a trip to Dismal.  I’ve traveled pretty extensively in my life, and I have to say, it doesn’t get much better than a relaxed weekend golfing in the magical Sandhills of Nebraska.    

While the atmosphere and views are incredible, I think the strength of the course lies in the strategic options offered throughout, the variety of shots required, and the creativity rewarded around the greens.  There also are some wonderfully quirky touches that are interesting and just plain fun.  

This is getting long.  Next up:   WHAT MAKES IT GREAT

Tim Kratz

Re:Dismal River (long) (continuing)
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2007, 07:03:26 PM »
WHAT MAKES IT GREAT.   I could wax poetic about every hole on the course, but here are descriptions of some of my favorites:      

Tee shot on 1.  Nothing can top  the best first hole in all of golf (Sand Hills), but Number 1 at Dismal is a great starting hole.   It’s a short par 4 that plays shorter because of the dogleg and the slope of the fairway.   I particularly like the options it gives you off the tee.  Take it down the left side of the fairway with a draw and you catch a hill that can get you within 100 yards of the green.  You probably will be on a flat surface, but you probably will not have a clear view of the pin.  Hit a shorter drive down right center of the fairway, and you will stay on top of the hill with a clear view of the green.  However, you will be at least 50 yards further away.   I’m still trying to decide which I prefer.   From the bottom of the hill, the green looks smaller than it actually is.  It’s a deep green with some significant movement, so distance control on the approach is critical.  

Approach on 2.   Some have been critical of the blind shots at Dismal River.  I think they’re great.  The approach on two is a doozy.  From the landing area, the green is completely  hidden, cleverly tucked away below a large blowout on the right side of the fairway.   From the first time I saw this approach, I’ve loved this hole.  After you arrive at your ball on the fairway, you have no idea where to go.  The caddy points you over the blowout to the right, and it’s hard to believe.   You look over the ridge, and, sure enough, there’s a nice big target down there on a smooth plateau, where you had assumed there would be nothing but native rough.  The green is large, and  no bunkers approach the putting surface.   There is plenty of room left of the green and the slope on that side will send your ball towards the hole.  The fairway run-up provides ample opportunity to bounce your ball in if you so desire.  You have to relax and trust your senses (and your caddy) as you hit that approach.  What a great feeling to crest the ridge, wondering what happened, and discover your ball close to the pin.  A very tough hole the first time you play it.  Much easier as you get comfortable with the blind approach.  Choosing this green site was a bold and wonderful choice by the Nicklaus group.  

Hole Number 4.  Like many holes at Dismal, this reachable five-par  is deceptive from the tee box.  The fairway looks reasonably flat and wide, but balls tend to bounce hard left when they land.  If you drill one right down the middle, you may end up in a fairway bunker (not terribly penal) on the left side.  After that happens a few times, you learn to hit your drive down the right side of the fairway, over the fairway bunker on that side.   A little draw is OK, and will help your distance, but a hook will send you into the trap on the left.  A fade is the safer shot off the tee.  It’s a fun shot because you have to be precise, you can help yourself by shaping the shot, and a really good shot rewards you with a great chance at birdie.    

The approach is even more entertaining.  A good drive from the members tees will put me 200 to 250 out, depending on the wind.  There is an old windmill guarding the left side of the green, a blowout waste area around the windmill (with a water basin directly underneath), and a  bunker directly in front of the green.  If you are on the far left side of the fairway, the windmill is directly in your line, but you can go over it or around it with a sweeping hook.   When Jack and Chris first routed the hole, there was some discussion of removing the windmill.  In the end, it stayed, and we are glad it’s there.   It’s quirky, but it’s fun.  

The green contours are one of the many things that make the course so special, and number four is a true roller coaster with several distinct sections.  High wedges landing less than 10 feet from the front may spin back to the fairway or end up in the bunker.  We had a great time when I last played the course in October trying to figure out how to use the huge undulations on many greens to our advantage.  I eagled this hole by hitting a 40 foot putt 12 feet by the hole (on purpose) and watching it trickle slowly back towards the cup and in the hole.  It was about as much fun as I've had with any one shot on a golf course.

Hole Number 5.   One of the best three-pars I’ve played.  Simple but stunning.  Uphill to a saddle-shaped green, with a deep bunker right in the middle. Anything on the front of the green or slightly short is going to find the bunker or roll back quite a ways.  The green is not particularly deep, so it’s easy to end up in the closely shaved collection area on the back side.  If you end up there, and the pin is in front, you have a delicate little pitch with a real danger of ending up back down the fairway.   We all had our favorites as the initial routing was completed, and I don’t recall anyone  mentioning number 5.  But we saw a gem as soon as the grass began to grow.  It has been praised consistently by virtually everyone that has played the course.

Hole Number 8.  The par four eighth is, to me, a rarity -- a risk reward hole that really forces a tough decision.   So many holes are labeled as great risk/reward opportunities (e.g., 13 at Princeville), but, in reality,  the reward is minuscule (an approach shot reduced by 50 yards) compared to the risk (a strong chance you lose your ball in the jungle).  Number eight at Dismal strikes an excellent balance.  Without wind, it plays around 265 if you go straight for the green.   The shot looks intimidating as the landing area and the green are slightly uphill from the tee, and you cannot see much of either.   When I first looked at the hole, I thought that I was once again seeing a “risk reward” hole where no reasonable non-PGA pro would take the risk.  But, as it turns out, there is a reasonably large run-up area just short of the green, and you also can miss the shot a bit right where the embankment tends to kick the ball towards the green.  If you miss it significantly left, you likely are in a large, nasty looking blow out bunker, but you might get lucky and still have a chance at par.  

The key is that you really do have a chance at a significant reward –  a putt for eagle, two putts for birdie –  so it forces you to make an educated, and somewhat nerve-wracking decision.   When I last played the course in early October,  we were slightly downwind and two of the four players in my group hit the green twice in two days, both times with fairway metals.  One time, the forecaddy said one of our shots rolled right over the edge of the hole.  (We’ll never know).   If you lay up, the ideal shot if probably about 200 yards down the middle of the fairway.  From there, it is a wedge in over the large blow-out.      

Hole Number  9.  Another great five-par.  Sort of  a blind drive.   There is a fair amount of room in the landing area, but you cannot see it from the tee.  Listen to the caddy and hit it slightly right of the right side of the visible fairway.   A slight fade off the tee works well.  A hook can get you in trouble as the fairway runs out quickly on the left.   It’s reachable downwind, but there is a there is a huge blowout that protects the left side of the green, and the green is not at all deep.  The right side does provide an unprotected opening but it is narrow.  When playing against the wind, the hole becomes a brute as your second shot must avoid a somewhat hidden blowout that starts in the left rough and encroaches towards the middle of the fairway at about 160- 180 yards from the green.  

Tim Kratz

Re:Dismal River (continuing) (third and final post)
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2007, 07:06:46 PM »
Green on 10.  This three-par has an enormous green with a tremendous amount of slope and a bunker smack dab in the middle of the green.  If the pin is back, it changes club selection by at least two clubs.  The green is shaped so that you can use the embankments from virtually any spot and can putt around the bunker to get to the pin.  It’s not easy, but it is possible.  Unusual but incredibly fun.  The pin was back when Jack played on the grand opening.  He landed it about 15 feet left and it trickled down the slope to end up about three feet away.  An easy birdie.    

Hole Number 13.  This hole has endured a lot of criticism, and it is being modified.  I’ll admit I thought the hole was unplayable the first time I played it.   However, after a few rounds figuring out what to do off the tee, I now think it is a great golf hole which will get only better with the modifications.  The only way to play the hole is to hit a fairway wood or hybrid off the tee and to try to stay on the right side of the fairway.  A fade is good.  Anything down the middle and longer than 260 yards will reach a huge downhill, right to left slope and probably will end up in the native.  
From the preferred landing zone, you still have a tough approach in the 180 yard range over quite a bit of native, to a green that also has a significant right to left slope.   It’s a tough shot, but if you can land it on the right side of the green or just off the green to the right, the ball will role all the way to the hole.  And you actually can bounce it in down the right side.  Plans are in the works to make the slope near the green a bit less severe and to allow more options on the approach by lowering a mound in front of the green and broadening the fairway there.      

Jack’s reaction (at the grand opening) to the controversy surrounding this hole was interesting.    He said, in essence, yes it’s tough, but players should recognize it’s tough and not expect to be putting for birdie.  He said that if you are a double digit handicap, you should expect to bogey this hole (which is handicapped as the second hardest on the course), and this might be a good time to play for five – lay up short or to the right of the green on your approach, chip on, get down in two, and move on.   He said players should use some strategy, as do the amateurs in Scotland and Ireland, and realize that a bogey isn’t always a terrible thing.        

Hole Number 17.   A stunning four-par that fits the natural terrain perfectly.  Downhill, dogleg left, with tall, wildly undulating, grass-covered dunes running the length of the hole on the right side.  You can bite off as much of the dogleg as you want on the drive or take the safer route down the middle with a fairway wood.   Gorgeous approach to a green that is nestled in perfectly at the base of the dunes.  Lots of room to bounce it in on the right side of the green  if the wind is howling, but there is a deep blowout protecting the left side of the green.

Hole Number 18: A tremendous finishing par-five.  Great views from a very elevated tee box, but uphill the rest of the way.  There is a  huge waste area blowout to the left of the fairway, and tall mounds all down the right side of the fairway.  Downwind, it can be reached in two, but the approach is devilish.  For one, you cannot see the flag or the green because they sit tucked down in natural little bowl to the left of where the fairway appears to go.   For two, the fairway gets very narrow about fifty yards short of the green, as it turns to the left.  Jack and Chris picked a tremendously unique site for the green.  It’s extremely long and narrow, with significant movement throughout, and no bunkers approach the green.   We entertained ourselves for thirty minutes after a round one day (no-one else was on the course), attempting various putts on this green and trying to use the embankments to our advantage.

DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY.   There has been a lot of discussion here and elsewhere regarding the difficulty of the course.  I agree that it is a difficult, and perhaps more fun for the lower handicap player, but I don’t think it is so hard that the mid-level golfer would not have a wonderful time.  From the middle tees, for me, I think Dismal is slightly more difficult than Sand Hills from the back tees.  It is around 300 yards shorter, but it is tighter, both on approach shots and off the tee.  Dismal has more blind shots and probably six holes with tighter landing zones off the tee  than on any single hole at Sand Hills.        

When Dismal first opened in July, it was especially difficult because the native rough was so thick that any ball in the native was gone for good.  That changed significantly by the end of the season as we were able to widen the first cut of rough a bit and thin out the native rough (a process that will continue next Spring).   In late September, you typically would find your ball in the native and might even have a shot at reaching the green in regulation (similar to Sand Hills).    

I have always played Sand Hills from the back, but  have played Dismal only two times from the championship tees, so I cannot give an extremely informed opinion.  It was very tough, but not unplayable as the fairways still are wide enough that I did not lose many balls.  It’s rated 77.7 from the back, and I don’t think that is in any way inflated.

I do believe there is some risk that hit-and- run players who only have time for one quick round may not be totally enamored by their lone experience on the course.   Even for good players, the blind shots and the undulating greens can take you out of your comfort zone the first time you play.   Add in some wind, and it can make for a big number.  However, the same things that make you uncomfortable the first time you play give great satisfaction as you develop a feel for the course.  When I send people out there, I always tell them two things: 1) make sure to take a caddy and to listen to what he or she says; and 2) take your time, stay overnight on the property, and play the course at least two or three times.  

WALKING.  I love to walk and I’ve walked Dismal several times and will do so more in the future.  It’s a pretty good workout, but it is manageable, particularly with a caddy – similar to Sand Hills in level of exertion, though I haven’t seen nearly as many walkers at Dismal.  Hopefully, that will change.  Work needs to be done, and is being done, cutting the native for walking paths from green to tee and tee to fairway.  

That’s all for now.  I never intended this to be so long, and I hope I have not violated any rule requiring brevity, but it sure is fun to imagine playing this course again, as I look out my window and see nothing but white.





Geoffrey Childs

Re:Dismal River (continuing) (third and final post)
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 07:16:56 PM »
That’s all for now.  I never intended this to be so long, and I hope I have not violated any rule requiring brevity, but it sure is fun to imagine playing this course again, as I look out my window and see nothing but white.
Quote
;D You certainly have not lurked enough to read Tom Paul's posts  ;D

Thanks for your review and I look forward to the rest of the discussion.

This kind of insight from developers, architects, superintendents and other in the business truly is what this website is all about.

My one trip to the Sand Hills to see and play Sand Hills is etched in my memory and one of the greatest experiences of my life. I look forward to a return trip to see Dismal River and Ballyneal.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 10:34:35 AM by Geoffrey Childs »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River (continuing) (third and final post)
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 07:25:07 PM »

This kind of insight from developers, architects, superintendents and other in the business truly is what this website is all about.


agreed...thanks Tim
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Dismal River (continuing) (third and final post)
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 07:32:35 PM »

DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY.    From the middle tees, for me, I think Dismal is slightly more difficult than Sand Hills from the back tees.  It is around 300 yards shorter, but it is tighter, both on approach shots and off the tee.  Dismal has more blind shots and probably six holes with tighter landing zones off the tee  than on any single hole at Sand Hills.        


Tim,

I really appreciate your post. I have to say that I was ready to jump on your bandwagon till I got to the statement above. I have told this story before, but I always remember standing on the double diamond back 4th tee of Sand Hills with a decent morning wind in our face and the Southampton GC Club Champ turns to the group and says, "What the hell are we doing back here?"

It sounds like you are doing all the right things to get the course more playable for the 9 handicap like me, so thanks for that. Good luck.

Jason Blasberg

Re:Dismal River
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 09:15:46 PM »
Tim:

The only sand hills region course I've played is Prairie Dunes and I now know it very well.  

Of the others I've seen only photos but Dismal River grabbed my eye immediately and has a bold fresh look that is distinct from Sand Hills and I very much look forward to hopefully making the trip.  The greens look like a hoot and the more crumpled the fairway the better.  

Although after playing Engineers greens I'd love to compare and contrast wild undulation for wild undulation.  Well contoured greens keep you interested for all 18 holes and make you a far better and more creative player.  

Glad to hear your thoughts on the course.  

Here's to Spring . . . it can't come soon enough!!

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 10:52:22 PM »
Thanks, Tim, for the insightful essay on Dismal River. Ever since I first saw a picture of number 5, it's been on my "must play in this lifetime" list. I just want to see what balls look like flying toward it and rolling on that green. I can only imagine the knee-quaking feeling of having to chip towards the forward pin you mention.

Any word on how the winter is affecting the course, or is it just buried under piles of snow like my yard?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2007, 02:46:20 AM »
Thanks Tim for your perspective as a principal in this venture.  It's nice to hear more than one view of the club, and we've all been inundated with what's good and what's not about the club.  

Hopefully it will be as successful as all of you who are involved dreamed it would be when you set out to undertake the project.  All of golf are better for your ventures, and I thank you for that.  

Remember, there will always be those who love what you've done and those that hate what you've done, but in the end, all you've got to please is yourself and those who call Dismal River their club.

Scott
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Jim Nugent

Re:Dismal River
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2007, 06:58:18 AM »
Tim, will JN modify the tee shot on 13, as well as the approach shot to the green?  

I remember one of the regular posters here felt it was real hard to keep the ball in the fairway at Dismal River.  That was probably after a round or so of play.  Your thoughts on this?

How do you think the course would hold up to top pro tournament play?  Is that a possibility, even if only a demonstration?  (Was thinking how cool a tournament could be where they play 36 at DR, and 36 at SH.)  

Do you know anything about the second course JN is designing/building there?

Your report really makes me want to play the course.  Hope we can see some pictures, if not now, at least after the course opens again in the spring.  

Also hope Ran does a profile of DR, perhaps contrasting/comparing it with Sand Hills.  

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 10:32:23 AM »
 

Here's to Spring . . . it can't come soon enough!!

Seconded....
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Tim Kratz

Re:Dismal River
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 01:26:16 PM »
Jim:  I do think we are doing a little work on the left side of the fairway on 13 to make it less likely that ball will run all the way to the native.   I'm confident that the course would be a good test for top pro play from the tips.  I think it would be fascinating to see, but I don't think we can do it because the native areas on the course are so fragile that a gallery of any size could be a disaster.  I do think the fairways become much easier to hit after you play the course a few times.  They are plenty wide, but they don't always appear plenty wide from the tee.    

Mike:  I can understand the club champion's concern.  I don't usually play Number Four at Sand Hills from the very back, especially into the wind.  There are no carries at Dismal from the middle tees that would give an average golfer any problem at all.  I hit it pretty long, but a bit wayward.  Perhaps a straighter, shorter ball striker would find Dismal from the middle easier than Sand Hills from the back.  I do know this, I've played Dismal extensively with players with handicaps between 11 and 15, and they still loved the course.  With your 9 handicap, you might just tear it up.  :)  

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Dismal River
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2007, 04:27:17 PM »
I do know this, I've played Dismal extensively with players with handicaps between 11 and 15, and they still loved the course.  With your 9 handicap, you might just tear it up.  :)  

Tim,

Many here can confirm that I play to that handicap for about a 4-5 day period in August each year.  ;) Thanks again.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2007, 04:48:36 PM »
Tim, I really think you ought to add some photos to the above narrative, and resubmitt this nicely written description of Dismal River as a "My Home Course" feature here on GCA.com.

Thank you for your passion and contributions.  There are always going to be praise and criticism of any course.  It is wise to consider the sources of each and adjust accordingly, when adjustments are warranted.  Good luck with the on-going operations at DR.  I hope to see it some day.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Guy Phelan

Re:Dismal River (continuing) (third and final post)
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2007, 04:58:51 PM »

DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY.    From the middle tees, for me, I think Dismal is slightly more difficult than Sand Hills from the back tees.  It is around 300 yards shorter, but it is tighter, both on approach shots and off the tee.  Dismal has more blind shots and probably six holes with tighter landing zones off the tee  than on any single hole at Sand Hills.        


Tim,

I really appreciate your post. I have to say that I was ready to jump on your bandwagon till I got to the statement above. I have told this story before, but I always remember standing on the double diamond back 4th tee of Sand Hills with a decent morning wind in our face and the Southampton GC Club Champ turns to the group and says, "What the hell are we doing back here?"

It sounds like you are doing all the right things to get the course more playable for the 9 handicap like me, so thanks for that. Good luck.

Mike,

What a wonderful picture you just painted!

All the best,
Guy

Guy Phelan

Re:Dismal River
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2007, 05:01:01 PM »
Tim,

What a wonderful desription and time well spent to provide us with your insight. Thank you!

Guy