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TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2007, 04:38:58 PM »
Mark:

Of course six figures would be low for the maintenance budget of Pine Valley. Six figures would be low for most all the top end courses in America today. But if you happen to be implying six figures is low for that portion of their maintenance budget dedicated to maintaining bunkers, and you actually know that, to be honest with you I don't think I would put that on here if I were you.   :o
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 04:43:28 PM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

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Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2007, 04:46:07 PM »
Tom,
What does that say to you about maintenance budgets and the standards that the top courses set for others?  Maybe when the top courses show that they can maintain a great golf course on half the budget of others, someone will take notice.  

We recently did a confidential survey comparison of most of the top clubs in the area and it is very interesting.  You are quite right that the numbers are very high, even at clubs one might think don't spend as much because of firm and fast conditions.  
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 04:47:13 PM by Mark_Fine »

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2007, 04:55:07 PM »
"Maybe when the top courses show that they can maintain a great golf course on half the budget of others, someone will take notice."

Mark:

Something like that may sound good to some but that's a virtual impossibility today and I'm pretty sure you know most of the reasons why.  

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2007, 04:57:49 PM »
"We recently did a confidential survey comparison of most of the top clubs in the area and it is very interesting.  You are quite right that the numbers are very high, even at clubs one might think don't spend as much because of firm and fast conditions."

Mark:

I know what most of the maintenance budgets are around here and a number elsewhere and the numbers are very high in this area compared to what?

Do you have any idea what Lehigh would save if maintenance stopped raking the bunkers daily and just let the members do it themselves?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 05:00:25 PM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2007, 05:19:34 PM »
Tom,
Maybe the question is, can a top club maintain great golf course conditions (a very subjective thing) for less than seven figures a year?  I will say that Lehigh's budget in under that (for now).  

Yes I do know how much Lehigh would save, but man made bunkers unfortunately need more than members raking them otherwise there would be a member revolt (especially with all the heavy rain we had this past season).  The super at Pine Valley will even tell you that.  

Guy Phelan

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2007, 06:17:35 PM »
As for maintenance, there is no reason that all sandy areas on a golf course couldn't be considered bunkers whether they were raked or not.  The choice to maintain them is strictly a choice made by the club owners or members.

Obviously Pine Valley does not maintain their sandy areas.  Do they consider them bunkers or through the green?

John,

Pine Valley plays all the sandy areas and bunkers as hazards.  They do occasionally maintain the large sandy waste areas with a "SandPro".  I actually think this makes some of the large areas more difficult.  

Why not just do away with rakes and play bunkers the way they were origianally intended to be played, as Hazards.

JohnV

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2007, 06:34:50 PM »
I've never heard of anyone demanding that other hazard areas such as water hazards that have no water in them be perfectly maintained. Do you think those hazard areas will be next? Think of all the other areas on golf courses around the world that are not perfectly maintained that are actually "Through the Green". Golfers don't seem to be demanding they be perfectly maintained, and they aren't even "Hazards".

Tom, I didn't mention water hazards because I didn't mean them so I shouldn't have said "everywhere".

But, while we are at it, if you want to get rid of 13-4, you are going to have to get rid of water hazards also.  Are you ready to do that?

JohnV

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2007, 06:41:08 PM »
I said I would post my analysis of what getting rid of bunkers would mean and here it is.  This isn't the first time that Tom Paul has brought this up.:

If Bunkers were not hazards

The rules of golf define a hazard as a bunker or a water hazard.  Recently Tom Paul postulated how golf would be different if a bunker was not considered a hazard.  I thought I’d take a look through the Rules of Golf and try to get an idea of what the implications of that would be.

A bunker is defined as “a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.”  Sand dunes are not generally considered as bunkers and are played as through the green.  If the current bunkers were considered through the green the rule book would get shorter and simpler, but would it be advantageous or disadvantageous to the player who finds himself in or near a bunker?

Let’s look at the various rules and what limitations they put on a player when his ball is in a bunker.

Addressing the ball
The definition of addressing the ball says you have addressed it in a hazard when you have taken your stance.  Through the green, you have not addressed it until you have taken your stance and grounded your club.  Since the bunker is now through the green, you would be able to ground your club and it would not be addressed until you had done that.

The ball
Rule 5 covers the ball.  One thing a player can always do is lift his ball to see if it has been cut.  There is no difference if the ball is in a bunker or through the green.  You can lift it, determine if it is damaged without cleaning it and replace it.

Practice
Rule 7 allow a player to make a practice swing at any time, but when you are in a bunker, you may not touch the sand.  If you are in a sandy area that is not marked as a bunker you can.  So, if bunker became “through the green” you could now take practice swings and touch the sand, as long as you weren’t improving the lie of your ball.

Identifying your ball
Under Rule 12, you are currently prohibited from lifting your ball for identification if it lies in a hazard.  But, Rule 15 says you are also exempt from playing a wrong ball from a hazard.  If a bunker were no longer a hazard, you would be allowed to lift the ball and clean it as necessary for identification, but you would also be liable for playing a wrong ball from the bunker.  This would eliminate the need for the equity decision 1-4/6.

Play the ball as it lies
Rule 13-4 is the most specific rule regarding bunkers.  The rule says that before playing a shot at a ball in a hazard or dropping a ball in a hazard that has been lifted, you may not test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard.  You also may not touch the ground in the hazard with your hand or club and you may not touch or move a loose impediment lying in the hazard.  All these things would become allowed if the bunker was not a hazard.  One of the most important advantageous that a player would get is that you could knock down piles of sand behind your ball in your backswing, which you currently may not do.  Another advantage would be the opportunity to remove loose impediments in a bunker.  This leads to a possible debate about what is a loose impediment and what is sand or loose soil.  We saw an example of that this past year with Stewart Cink at Harbour Town where the area was deemed to not be a bunker and the crushed shell became loose impediments that he could move.  In 2006, a new decision (33-8/40) was introduced allowing the Committee to declare material such as this the same as sand.

Ball at rest moved
Since the definition of when a ball is addressed would have change for the bunker, the timing of a penalty under Rule 18-2b would also change.

Lifting, Dropping, and Placing
Lifting a ball would be unchanged.  

Dropping would change, as it would not be required to drop in a bunker when taking relief from things like casual water, Ground Under Repair, obstructions and for unplayable lies.  Likewise, a dropped ball that rolls into a bunker would be in play as would one that rolls out of one.  Therefore a player who was taking relief from something like casual water in a bunker could now drop it in the grass next to the bunker if it was within the correct dropping area and whether it rolled into the bunker or stayed out, he would play it.  This might be a big advantage versus the current rule where you have to drop it in the bunker and hope it doesn’t plug.

Currently if a player is required to replace a ball in a bunker and the lie has been altered, he is required to re-create it as nearly as possible.  With the change, he would do the same thing as anywhere else through the green and place it in the nearest lie that is most similar within one club-length of the original lie.  Also, if the spot was not determinable he would be required to drop it as near as possible to where it lay, but the restriction on it being in the bunker would be removed.  When the ball fails to come to rest on the spot it was being placed, he could now go outside the bunker if required without penalty, removing the equity decision 20-3d/2.

Loose impediments
As stated above, it would now be allowed for the player remove loose impediments, but that would also mean that if a loose impediment is moved and it causes the ball to move there would be a one-stroke penalty and the ball would need to be replaced.
Obstructions and Abnormal Ground Conditions
The need for the special relief conditions in both of these rules for bunkers would be gone.  Therefore, the player would go the nearest point of complete relief that was through the green, whether it was in the bunker or not, and drop within one club length of this.  But, it would also mean that a player taking relief from one of these situations outside a bunker might find that his nearest point of relief was in the bunker.

The special situations for balls lost in these conditions in hazards would also be removed.

Also, a player taking relief from a wrong putting green might have to deal with a hazard the he currently wouldn’t.

Embedded Ball
Since the normal embedded ball rule in the rule book only covers balls in closely mown areas, it would be unchanged.  If the local rule found in Appendix I was in place, there would be no change is it explicitly prohibits relief for a ball embedded in sand.

Ball Unplayable
Rule 28 would eliminate all the wording about how to deal with options 28-b and c for a ball in a bunker.  The player could now drop anywhere allowed in the rule for areas through the green.

Conclusion
I believe that making bunkers a part of the area defined as through the green would simplify the rules of golf and in most cases give the player an advantage over the current rules.  The question to ask is, would it be too much of an advantage?  With the exception of the ability to knock down sand on the backswing and getting out a bunker at times for little or no cost, I think it wouldn’t be a big deal.



Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2007, 06:55:09 PM »
I agree with what Tom Paul is hoping to achieve by the rule change that he is suggesting, however, after a bunker sand becomes crusty and inconsistent, it also looses it's porosity and now it begins to hold water after every rainfall.

A bunker with poor sand texture becomes a water hazard after every rain. I try to switch the sand out on my bunkers before they get crusty, primarily so they drain.

My point is, even if my players were allowed to ground their clubs in the bunkers, I would probably spend the same amount on maintenance regardless.

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2007, 07:14:22 PM »
Mark:

For some reason there was no revolt at Pine Valley during the first 85 years of its existence when the bunkers were very infrequently raked. I wonder why that was?

Mark_Fine

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Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2007, 07:26:41 PM »
Maybe the same reason why you don't think a great course can be maintained for under a seven figure budget  ;)  

Adjusting for inflation, do you think Pine Valley spent more or less back then on maintenance?  

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2007, 07:28:04 PM »
"But, while we are at it, if you want to get rid of 13-4, you are going to have to get rid of water hazards also.  Are you ready to do that?"

JohnV:

That's an excellent point, as obviously Rule 13-4 covers both water hazards and bunkers. No, I wouldn't want to get rid of water hazards but I'm not sure it would hurt much about the playing of golf if there was no prohibition against touching the ground in them too. Simply let Rule 13-2 rule everywhere so that the only prohibition and penalty would be if one's lie was improved just as it is with 13-2  "Through the Green".

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2007, 07:34:29 PM »
"Maybe the same reason why you don't think a great course can be maintained for under a seven figure budget. :)

I'm not sure what you mean there.    

"Adjusting for inflation, do you think Pine Valley spent more or less back then on maintenance?"

Do I think Pine Valley spent more adjusting for inflation before they began raking their bunkers frequently? Of course not. That's a helluva lot of sand to maintain.

But there was a time before Dick Bator came in that Pine Valley didn't really spend much relatively speaking on the course. Generally it showed to, and that became a problem.  

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2007, 07:58:57 PM »
JohnV:

Post #57 is very interesting to have and thank you for taking the time to do that and post it.

However, I have not suggested that the Rules should do away with hazards, including bunkers as hazards. All I suggested was getting rid of the prohibition against touching the ground in a hazard which is Rule 13-4b. Let Rule 13-2 cover hazards too just as it does with areas that are "Through the Green". All the other rules ramifications dealing with hazards could remain the same.

I think the intent and prohibition of Rule 13-4c should stay in golf but frankly that can be handled by Rule 23-1 as it now is. I don't know what to say about Rule 13-4a but that's probably not of much consequence if the prohibition against touching the ground in a hazard was abolished.

Again, I think one really should go all the way back and investigate both when this rule came into golf and why and what its application in golf may have wrought over the years regarding the over-maintenance of bunker sand surfaces.

I'm quite certain few have thought to do that in modern times simply because they assume that there is something so fundamental and traditional about this rule.

I'm not sure that assumption is a good reason to not look at what its abolition may mean to help restore a very fundamental feature of golf---the bunker as perhaps a far less maintained hazard feature and to restore it as a feature of real strategic consequence, as it obviously once was and was originally intended to be.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 08:12:47 PM by TEPaul »

Scott Stearns

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Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #64 on: February 03, 2007, 03:13:51 PM »
A prohibition on "draw[ing] away or mak[ing] any mark in the Sand" can be found as far back as 1783, in the Rules of the club at Aberdeen.  It may be found in earlier codes, i don't know.  

It does not appear in the St Andrews code of 1829, but does appear the 1882 code of the R and A, and may have appeared in earlier codes.

The fact that this rule appears in the Aberdeen code and not the early R and A codes may mean that it did not apply at St Andrews, or it may mean that at St. Andrews, the rule was so widely known and understood that the club did not think it necessary to put it into writing.  The codes of the time were very short.  There is no way to know.

As for the development of "waste areas" Frank Hanningan has in the past attributed this concept to a PGA rules official, who was trying to deal with the then-novel concept in the late'60s-early70's (For rules people, FH wrote on it after the Stu Cink affair on Golf Observer.com)

If you were to survey the rules officials at the US Amateur,  i believe you would find a large number who would just as soon do away with the waste area concept, and call all these things what they are-hazards.  The rules, however, have to serve a lot of different masters, and the Tours- Euro and US, use the waste area concept, so allowing it some weeks and disallowing it other weeks creates penalties.  The Stuart Appelby situation is an example of this.

I personally believe that 13-4 has nothing to do with either Tour players or the public's preference for perfect bunkers.  

I believe avg. golfers want their course to look like those on TV, so when Augusta started getting televosed and their bunkers started looking perfect, so the public wanted bunkers maintained perfectly.  

Since the rule has been around for 225 years plus, and applies around the word, wouldn't it be easier to ask what it would take to get a green committee, say, the one at Gulph Mills, to take the rakes off the course?

At my course, if we collected the rakes, the membership would issue one of two complaints.  (1) The bunkers look like those at a muni (not necessarily a complaint, but tell them that), or (2) if the Tour rakes them, we should too.

I'd love Tom Doak or other architects to tell us whether they have proposed the no rake idea (or had owners ask about it) for clubs they have built.

Friar's Head does this (i think), and it seems to be part of the feel of the place.  The members I know like and accept it.

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2007, 07:26:58 AM »
Scott:

The term "Waste bunker" apparently first appeared in golf out of Indiana and due to Pete Dye. There was an area on the course during construction that actually had "waste" (perhaps some form of sewage in it) and Dye was trying to figure out how to handle it. His solution was apparently to clean it up some, leave it unmaintained and it became known as a "waste bunker" because of what it had been.

This was confirmed to me by Alice Dye in a phone call last year, I think, or maybe it was the year before.

But the Dyes believe they were the ones who brought the "waste bunker" into golf and which became known as "waste area".

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2007, 07:30:39 AM »
Knew that, thanks.  i was referring to who/how the term waste bunker came into the rules, and why it was defined as through the green.

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2007, 07:42:26 AM »
Scott:

I think you mean how "waste bunker" or "waste area" came into golf, not into the Rules. The term "Waste Bunker" or Waste Area" is not in the Rules of Golf and according to the USGA Rules of Golf Committee (in a fairly recent phone call) it is not going to be defined or even mentioned in the Rules of Golf any time soon.

I believe the only place you will see the term mentioned is on the backs of score cards of courses that have these areas in the form of a "local" rule or on "Conditions of Competition" sheets with tournaments held on those courses.

I think the R&A/USGA should mention and define them in the Rules of Golf simply because they are a reality and not mentioning them in the Rules of Golf is just confusing.

By the way, I even asked if a golf club could just categorize all the bunkers on their course as "waste areas" and "through the green" and was told in no uncertain terms "NO" for the simple reason that if they fit the Rule Book definition of "bunker" they cannot be waste areas or waste bunkers or "through the green". I then asked if some waste area or waste bunker looked like a "bunker" how would a golfer tell the difference but by that point our conversation was effectively over.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 07:48:59 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2007, 09:07:46 AM »
Once again I would suggest we get rid of all the colored stick areas on a golf course and be governed by the rules that provide for the remedy of lost balls, unplayable lies, casual water and  embedded balls....and not allowing a player to improve his lie......no matter where he is thru the green. If you improve your lie you call a penalty on yourself. I think most people know when they are improving their lie and the ones who pretend they don't are people you really don't want to enjoy a game with anyway.
This would apply to all of the play surfaces a player confronts during the course of a round. I would throw out loose impediments rules also....if you don't like that rock or stick in front or behind your ball take a drop at nearest relief and add a stroke, similar to what you do when you don't like the tree you have nestled up against.

Clubs can still maintain their sand or grass or water areas to whatever level they deem fit for the enjoyment of the players.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2007, 11:08:26 AM »
Paul:

If you and I get together on this we can do some serious damage to the Rule Book.  ;)

You want to throw out the "Loose Impediments" Rule, Rule 23??

OK, I guess I could go for that, sort of. Only trouble is I've always had a strong affinity for the term "loose impediment", maybe because that's sort of what I am anyway.  ;)

Maybe we could take things way back the way they were in golf eons ago before there was even an "unplayable" ball rule. Back then it was pretty much you just didn't touch your ball before you took it out of the hole. Back then if you couldn't play your ball between tee and green the only recourse was to concede the hole.

In that case we may need to tell the R&A/USGA they need to throw stroke play out of the Rules too because one sort of has to touch his ball if it's unplayable in stroke play or the day is over, period.

But I'd be willing to lobby for that too.

Do you want to tell Davis there won't be any more stroke play in golf so his career is now over or do you want me to tell him?

I tell you what. I'll tell Davis there won't be anymore stroke play so his career is over and you tell Finchem there won't be any more stroke play so his TOUR is history too, unless he wants to run all his tournaments at match play which we all know is the real game anyway.

Tell you what Paul, you take the club and kilt concession and I'll take the gutta percha concession.

You want to tell Wally Uihlein about this or do you want me to?  ;)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 11:10:51 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2007, 12:59:06 PM »
Tom....a 'loose impediment', that's a good one.

I know my views are hopelessly anachronistic, but I still have to vent because I get depressed and concerned at times about the way the game is drifting away from the simple to the more complex and expensive, with values I have less and less in common with..........and I'm a part of it.  ::)

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 03:00:48 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2007, 02:03:02 PM »
Paul:

I'll tell you what we can do together for the betterment of golf and its future. Let's become rake thieves!

"Paul " Civil War" Cowley and Thomas "Loose Impediement" Paul, the two notorious East Coast Rake Thieves---Reward for their capture---a  dozen dozen gross gross of New ProVxs"

You've got a truck and I have a brand new Range Rover and every golf course we go to we can steal all their rakes as there's plenty of room for a course full or rakes in our vehicles. It's cold up here right now and they'll make good kindling for the homeless street dwellers.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2007, 07:34:41 AM »
Tom/James,

Most rules purists realize that being allowed to lift your ball has been in the rules since the first 13 rules were published for the Leith Golf Club in 1744.  Notice Rule 13 from those rules:

Quote
13.  Neither Trench, Ditch or Dyke, made for the preservation of the Links, nor the Scholar's Holes, or the Soldier's Lines, Shall be accounted a Hazard; But the Ball is to be taken out Teed and play’d with any Iron Club.

Those who think that there was a time when you could never touch your ball live under a misconception.

John,

I know I have been one that likes the idea of "playing the ball as it lies" and have supported keeping golfers from touching their golf balls.

However, I have never felt a golfer should be left without an option.  There could be times a golfer could not finish unless he could drop another ball.

I would let a golfer drop a new ball or touch his existing ball in play--there just would always be a penalty for doing so--none of this "free relief stuff".  

PS  I, too, have enjoyed reading Chapan's, "Rules of the Green"

TEPaul

Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2007, 08:03:20 AM »
JohnV said:

"Tom,

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.  Areas that are maintained as bunkers should be bunkers, not "waste areas".

I believe the PGA Tour finally decided that about the areas at the TPC Sawgrass that they had initially declared "waste areas" but were maintaining as hazards.  They are now hazards.

Then there was the stupid one at Harbour Town that was considered a "waste area" because it had crushed shells instead of sand which enabled Stewart Cink to get a great break in a playoff.  The Decisions book had a decision added that allowed the Committee to clarify the status of material similar to sand and declare it the same as sand so that areas like that could be considered hazards.  I believe it is now a hazard.

Pete Dye seems to be the main trouble maker in all this doesn't he? :)

A lot of clubs have statements on the back of their cards that are not legitimate rules, which is why smart tournament organizers say to ignore all the rules on the club score card."


JohnV;

On the other hand I'm glad to see the PGA and other Rules officials beginning to declare those "waste areas" as hazards and not "Through the Green" as the scorecards of those courses do.

I have little doubt the reason those areas have been declared as "Through the Green" in the first place is simply because those clubs realize those areas are just too big to maintain perfect lies in----nothing more.

But I still think abolishing Rule 13-4 and particularly 13-4b would help in an effort to have less perfectly maintained sand areas in sand bunkers.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A fundamental Rule change?
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2007, 11:20:31 AM »
Tom

There really isn't much to worry about. Check out this video I picked up from John V's Irish Writer thread.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KxpeZexTOPc&mode=related&search=
"We finally beat Medicare. "

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