The consequences of failing to storm the fortress

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

#10 send balls back 30 - 50 yards depending on the height of the fairway...#9 does not discriminate, the ball is going back 90 - 100 yards if it makes 5 yards off the green (assuming it is cut as fairway all the way down). Why is there a difference between 40 yards (Max penalty on #10) and 90 yards (min penalty on #9)? It has more to do with missing the green from greenside, which as you know is quite possible on both holes, than from the fairway.

A quick view of Google Earth doesn't seem to support your measurements on # 9 or # 10.

Don't tell me that you pulled these  out of the same orifice as the 30 % fairway acreage measurement  [/color]

As to the topic, both instances create a full penalty if the approach is not played properly.

[JESII]

Correct me if I'm wrong Mr Mucci, but weren't you part of the lynch mob that attacked Mr. Moriarty for using the Google Earth measuring device for height or altitude questions?

A ball rolled off the front of the ninth green at Shinnecock would roll at least 90 yeards befors stopping if it were fairway height all the way down the hill. I am equally confident about my guestimate for #10.

[Jim Nugent]

Obviously the 9th at Augusta. Remember Greg Norman in 96. Being short is death but the downhill putt from the back of the green is no bargain either.  We have a couple of elevated greens with false fronts at Waterbury. Seeing the ball roll off the green to the bottom of the hill is a real ball buster. Lots of options on the pitch, though - none of them easy.

Phil, #9 dearly cost Couples in '98 as well.  He had pitching wedge into the green, spun it back off the front and made bogey.  That, plus 13, lost the tournament for him.  

[TEPaul]

"It was meant for neither...it's rough because they didn't feel like mowing the grass that short...and don't need to looking forward...where would the ball stop?"

Sully:

It's hard to say if the grass was shorter on the hill approach up to the 9th at Shinnecock (on some of the aerials it looks shorter than it is now). We were up there not that long ago and that subject did come up. We did discuss where the ball might end up. The conclusion was if it was on the right side it would run to the bottom of the hill but if it was on the left side it might run into those bunkers at the base of the hill on the left.

I think the feeling was that would be sort of overkill particularly considering what can go on with the next hole as far as the ball running back off and way down the hill.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Correct me if I'm wrong Mr Mucci, but weren't you part of the lynch mob that attacked Mr. Moriarty for using the Google Earth measuring device for height or altitude questions?

A ball rolled off the front of the ninth green at Shinnecock would roll at least 90 yeards befors stopping if it were fairway height all the way down the hill. I am equally confident about my guestimate for #10.

I was equally confident about my measurements but thought that perhaps a third party reference might convince you.

I believe that your error lies in you're blending vertical with linear measurements.  If you go to the 100 yard mark from the center of the green, and then back another 18 yards, you'll see that a ball rolling down the hill won't be 118 from the center of the green.

TEPaul,

I agree, the successive nature of the holes tends to nix the concept of allowing the front to be maintained as fairway as it is on # 10.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

   I would add one other problem to your fine list which comes from my experiences at the Rolling Green holes that Wayne listed.

      Going long!   (I see Kalen beat me to it!)

      To avoid  underclubbing and  the resuling humiliation that comes from the roll down the hill you hit too much club and must deal with the problems over the green. Sometimes that leads to hitting across the green and back down the damn hill you were trying to avoid in the first place!


  BTW  I extend an open invite to play Rolling Green when you are in Phila.

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

You are right, the ball on 9 at Shinnecock would be 80 to 100 yards off the green if the fairway was extended all the way up the hill to the green.  Flynn's drawing showed a tongue of fairway coming down from the green for 40 or so yards and then rough down to the base of the hill.

[jeffwarne]

Mike Shea Sweeney,
If uphill greensites should have a larger green, presumably for fairness, what's the point? If I can creatively run a ball in the proper distance,or land a high shot that stops quickly better than my opponent, why shouldn't I be rewarded.
A larger green would accomodate the one dimensional player and not separate our abilities.

My pet peeves are that short holes must have small greens and long holes must have large greens. (which get really confusing if you have a 499 yard hole that is suddenly made a par 4- do you now have to make the green large because it's gone from short par 5 to long par 4???)
Or into the wind holes can't be long?
Now uphill greens need to be large ?

Somehow it's become important that every hole be an exact par 3.0, 4.0, or 5.0.

Aren't the most memorable holes the toughest, or the holes where we make birdie or eagle? It's the holes in between (the filler if you will )that provide the comparison to the unique holes that are difficult , heroic, or easier. It seems to me to many people demand and get filler holes today (although they might try to compensate with length.
Does anyone want to hear about the 6 iron I hit to the back of the uphill newly enlarged green-or is it a better story about the beautiful run up shot,or the up and down from the shmoo after missing the small elevated green-breaking the back of my opponent who had hit a brilliant iron shot.

Augusta is/was an example of a course with a lot of 1/2 pars and a lot of birdies and bogies. Great fun.

[James Edwards]

Bringing some English flair to the line up, and for all those that have played Littlestone, Royal Cinque Ports (Deal) and Royal St Georges (Sandwich).... Respectively, [the 4th, 5th and 6th and 17th], [4th, 6th, 16th and 17th] and [2nd, 4th, 9th, 10th and 17th] holes have this stunning fortress feature!  

I for one do not like to play 20-30 yard uphill pitches off of extreme tightly mown links turf (generally sandy   ish...) and also generally divot infested!

A great feature Patrick - I agree

[james soper]

seminole #2, #11. very tough to judge when the wind is up. green speeds make them difficult to hold. both can represent a stern test.

[Mike_Cirba]

10 at Shinnecock, 9 at ANGC, or, me at 10 Fishers Island after failing to storm the fortress.  

[Kalen Braley]

Tiger Woods took a double bogey on #10 at SH during the last US open a couple of years back.

And I recall having seen many players filter down that slope during the day when they had a front right pin position.  The course review on this site says the closer you get, the tougher the shot gets.

Either way I agree with the main spirit of this thread, fortress holes should be created more often. They usually get me every time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

seminole #2, #11. very tough to judge when the wind is up. green speeds make them difficult to hold. both can represent a stern test.

James,

There's somthing else I didn't mention that # 2 and # 11 at Seminole reminded me of, namely, "spin" especially when the green is pitched from back to front, where there's a little wind in your face.

The diliema you can face is the following.  Hit it a little short and have it spin back down the hill or into the bunker, or, hit it long and have a treacherous, downhill, downgrain, downwind putt that could be degreened.

[Patrick_Mucci]

That view, is one of the great views in golf, and, I'm not talking about the golfer.

The hill, flag and sky, what a combination..

[JESII]

Pat,

You'll appreciate this one...when I was living in Florida attempting to make a living playing golf I picked up a few loops at Seminole. One of those days I picked up Hank Kuehne as a guest of a few members you would know. After Kuehne drives it about 50 yards from the first green and pitches to a few feet he is offered an over/under bet of 68.5 and he jumps on it. He taps in on #1 and drives it about 75 yards from #2 (into the wind). To a front-left pin he hits a beautiful little wedge with only minimal spin, but you know what happens...his ball pitches a foot or two short of the hole and jumps one time to just beyond it and begins coming backwards very slowly...about 20 seconds later the ball stops in the first cut of rough about 10 or 15 yards short of the grren.

A chip that follows the same course as the wedge, settling at his feet and you've got a quick 6...

[JR Potts]

So did he break 69?

[JESII]

So did he break 69?

Nope...and he lost the press he made early in the back nine at 72 also...

[Paul_Turner]

2nd at Pine Valley is the best of this type.

1st at Portush is one where the target can get really slippery with v deep bunkers.  See Ran's pics.

[ed_getka]

The cool thing about Fishers #10 is how easy it is to have your ball run out the back of the green, especially if you are a lowball trajectory golfer like me. A very daunting approach shot to say the least.

Mike,
   You need to let those legs get out more my brotha.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

That's so easy to do.

I think the tendency to do that stems from the fear of being long and having to putt back down the slope, down grain and down wind.

From above the hole, I've seen golfers putt off the green and into the front bunker.

It can be a dicey approach, especially with a little breeze.

I've seen the same thing happen on # 13, 14, 15, 16 and especially # 18.  In fact, the last two times I played I hit a decent approach into # 18 only to have the spin take the ball a good 20-30 yards down the fairway.

The fear of going long on that hole is significant.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Mike Shea Sweeney,
If uphill greensites should have a larger green, presumably for fairness, what's the point? If I can creatively run a ball in the proper distance,or land a high shot that stops quickly better than my opponent, why shouldn't I be rewarded.

I do feel that if you are going to have a green that plays uphill the green must be somewhat large. The good holes seem to posses this. Bethpage #15, the Alps at national

Jeff-

Fair enough.

My point was that I have observed that some of the 'good' holes that play up hill have had larger greens.

I think if the green is small, severely sloped, and uphill things can become ridiculous. We have a hole down here that is so sloped and very uphill that you can only place the hole in one or two spots.

How does distance play a role in this? Can you have a hole that plays very uphill with a long approach?

I am going to answer my own question and say yes but it has to be say like 8 at the Bridge. Your able to play the ball short and run it up there. That is fun for me, how I played the hole most of the time.
Though  your not doing that at the 8th at National.
 
Give me an example of what you think is a 'good' or fun hole that plays uphill with a relatively small green. That you can't run up there.

[Mike_Cirba]

That view, is one of the great views in golf, and, I'm not talking about the golfer.

The hill, flag and sky, what a combination..

Patrick,

You'll notice what club I'm using.  And, it's not because I'm a purist!  

[jeffwarne]

Mike,
There you go again.

The uphill hole you're referring to which has a small green.
Why can the hole only be in one or two spots?
Because you can't get close to a front p

Sometimes a test of physical and mental skill is figuring out how to make a par anyway.
while you're complaining a hole is unfair because you can't get close, I'm hitting it to the back of the green (or straight up and high) or  over trying to find an alternative way to make par or better.
You're still stuck in that mindset that if I can't get close with a good shot in regulation mindset that it's not a good hole.
Try playing in the UK-the toughest holes can be downwind,
creating the same judgement and alternative mental challenge.

Good uphill approaches with small or narrow greens.
Not all are long and many are receptive to a runup.
That said long is a relative thing and most approaches are long to the majority of players
#10 The Bridge
#2 Sleepy Hollow-straight uphill-short though
#12 Sleepy Hollow,
#13 Sleepy Hollow
Any # of holes at Palmetto #9,#12,#7 from the forward tee ,
#13 ,#5,#1

#2 Augusta CC (over is death although they've made the green huge now-the play used to be on or left)
, #11 green used to tiny enlarged to be more fair-sux now,#16  which formerly had a tiny massively elevated green you could not run into-now it's a punchbowl, #14 ACC

#9 at ANGC way uphill from a nasty downhill lie (you might argue the green is big but above that hole brings double into play and isn't much easier than a chip at other courses), #7 now.

Many of these you can run up there but certainly you can't to certain pins on some - a lot of times you just have to figure out where to end up after the approach.

My point is that the reason most new courses are so frigging boring is that architects have listened to criticisms from good players about fairness and what a "good hole" should be.
Fortuneately the latest generation of architects has travelled ,seen, and implemented some of the classical and natural features that made the game so fascinating and unique on different venues.
Even the owners are starting to get it as these architects are getting the prime land and jobs now.

I asked a good player the other day about why he liked a certain course that I find strategically dull and devoid of options.  He said it rewarded you if you hit good shots.
I asked him why he bothered to leave the range as you could accomplish the same thing there.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

 Jeff-

I am not totally disagreeing with you, I am just observing that some of the 'Good" holes have larger greens. (notice the '  ')

I guess what I am thinking of when I think of a 'small' green, I think Goat Hill small. From those 2 spots ITS HARD TO MAKE PAR!Thats about how small the 16 green at methodist is. I will post a picture soon. All carry, furry bermuda rough surrouding the the collar, then 'pinehurst shaved' to the fariway.  If you miss the green your most likely looking at a 10-60 yard pitch shot to an insane green. Good hole or bad hole?


But I do agree with you that I love making a birdie on that hole. Or better yet missing the green making a sick up and down, while my buddy sticks it and misses the goat-hill sloped putt for 3.

Basically all I am trying to get across is that alot of holes 'we' consider to be 'good' uphill holes have possesed a larger green.

note- I don't consider 10 at the Bridge to be a small green

[Patrick_Mucci]

The size of the green is often dictated by the length of the approach shot.

The effective size of # 1 at NGLA is miniscule, while # 2 and # 3 are very large.

I don't think green size is critical, but, I think there is a tendency to provide additional margins on those uphill shots where the putting surface isn't visible.