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Steve Lang

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William P. Bell's Courses vs son W.F. Bell Jr's
« on: January 29, 2007, 09:26:23 PM »
 8)

I had the great pleasure to play Bakersfield Country Club this past saturday, 18 & then an emergency 9 after lunch..  Would be interested to see a listing of William P. Bell's courses in California and elsewhere.  (Ed.. per comments below i         didn't know son William F. (Billy) Bell took over..) I believe BCC is ~47 years old and I would say a classic tough track, packed with two bags of golf shots, not unlike Oak Tree GC..  Where are more Bell courses??
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 02:02:32 PM by Steve Lang »
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Bill_McBride

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2007, 10:16:29 PM »
Billy Bell Sr or Jr?

Tommy Nacarrato is the leading expert on the Bells.  Sr was the construction foreman for George Thomas, so lots of lineage there.  A lot of courses in Arizona are Bell:  Tucson CC, Randolph Park North, on and on.  Hopefully Tommy will chime in here.
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Lynn_Shackelford

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2007, 11:50:47 PM »
Tommy, before responding about the Bell's, have you found out Vince Evans' involvement at Western Avenue (Chester Washington)?
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It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
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Jeff Doerr

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2007, 12:05:51 AM »
Steve,

Try this link as a start:
http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/william-p-bell.html

I love Stanford, which I played a bunch in the late 80s to early 90s.

Here in Oregon, Forest Hills is an interesting old course that Bell redid in the 50s.

If you've spent time in CA - you've probably played a bunch of the courses...
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Mike Erdmann

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2007, 12:43:46 AM »
Jeff, was Forest Hills done by Bell Sr. or Jr.?  Illahe Hills CC was Bell Jr. so I had always assumed that Forest Hills was Jr. as well since they are the only two Bell courses in Oregon.  Maybe Tommy can shed some light given his Oregon roots and knowledge of the Bells.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 03:44:21 PM by Mike_Erdmann »
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Kyle Henderson

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2007, 01:07:55 AM »
I believe Mr. Bell also designed the Hill course at the Castlewood Country Club (Pleasanton, CA.), which is one of my favorites among the classic Bay Area courses. It has one of the best sets of par 3s anywhere in Northern California.

Quote from: Jeff Doerr on January 30, 2007, 12:05:51 AM
Steve,

Try this link as a start:
http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/william-p-bell.html

I love Stanford, which I played a bunch in the late 80s to early 90s.

Here in Oregon, Forest Hills is an interesting old course that Bell redid in the 50s.

If you've spent time in CA - you've probably played a bunch of the courses...
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Sébastien Dhaussy

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2007, 03:32:46 AM »
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Jeff Doerr

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2007, 09:54:16 AM »
The posts from Sebastien brought back some good discussion.

Mike,
Forest Hills may have had some Sr. input, but he died in 1953, during construction time.

I lived in CA from 71 to 89 and played a huge number of Jr designs (and Baldock :(). Most were not that memorable. They were playable, but pretty "vanilla" as one poster stated.

What are some of the best features at Illahe?
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Forrest Richardson

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2007, 10:06:27 AM »
Since Bakersfield was 1949, it is my guess that Wm. P (Sr.) worked with his son, Wm. F (Jr.)

The younger Bell was our of the service by this time and was supposedly learning the family business. Wm. P Bell died in 1953 as I recall, so this would be one of the courses that began the boom of Bell courses across California and some of the west.

We are working on our sixth Bell course now — Peacock Gap in San Rafael. Wm. F. (Jr.) did Peacock Gap. It was once featured in Golf Digest...why?...no clue. Perhaps there was something back then that said every new course deserved a write-up. Peacock was in Wm. F.'s "dark years"...those years when he built-built-built and rarely spent the time to make sure it got done with care. I really feel that the younger Bell was too busy. But, the good news is that the routings are all very good. As Desmond would say, "The have good bones..."
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Lynn_Shackelford

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2007, 10:56:10 AM »
I have mentioned this before, but I think based on comments by several above, it merits a second mention.

Asked by a fellow golfer to the sister of William F. Bell, "who was a better designer, your father or brother?"

Reply, "my brother didn't know anything about golf design."

Tommy oh Tommy, where are you and who routed many of William F. Bell's courses?
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It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
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Bill_McBride

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2007, 11:01:28 AM »
Quote from: Forrest Richardson on January 30, 2007, 10:06:27 AM
Since Bakersfield was 1949, it is my guess that Wm. P (Sr.) worked with his son, Wm. F (Jr.)

The younger Bell was our of the service by this time and was supposedly learning the family business. Wm. P Bell died in 1953 as I recall, so this would be one of the courses that began the boom of Bell courses across California and some of the west.

We are working on our sixth Bell course now — Peacock Gap in San Rafael. Wm. F. (Jr.) did Peacock Gap. It was once featured in Golf Digest...why?...no clue. Perhaps there was something back then that said every new course deserved a write-up. Peacock was in Wm. F.'s "dark years"...those years when he built-built-built and rarely spent the time to make sure it got done with care. I really feel that the younger Bell was too busy. But, the good news is that the routings are all very good. As Desmond would say, "The have good bones..."

As I recall Peacock Gap, it's a good thing the fairways were pretty wide.  The wind can HOWL off the bay!  :o

I would love to see what you do with the place because I don't recall it as being particularly interesting.
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Forrest Richardson

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2007, 11:14:38 AM »
I would not say Peacock's fairways are wide...but we are doing our best to make them appear such. At least in places. Here is the master plan...not fully updated, but nearly so:



Lynn — The story Tommy tells is that Mrs. Bell (Wm. P.'s wife, Wm. F.'s mother) did much of the routing for her husband. From what Tommy says, there is an account of Mrs. Bell, long after his father has passed away, being at a meeting (in her 80s) at which her son introduced her and explained she still worked on routings for him.

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Bill_McBride

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Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2007, 12:53:13 PM »
Thanks, Forrest.  It's been maybe 35 years since the last time I played there, everything seemed bigger back then!  I'm glad to see your involvement in upgrading Bay Area public access golf, lots of opportunity there.  ::)
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Steve Lang

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Re:William P. Bell's Courses vs son W.F. Bell Jr's
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2007, 02:07:16 PM »
 8)

Thanks all for links and comments above..

Just discovered Kern River Golf Course  was WP Bell, while Muroc Lake Golf Course was WF Bell..

p.s. the adventures of the reported best amateur golfer in Kern County history. Arnold Kirschenmann (played out of BCC), known as "The King of Kern County Golf," who passed away on May 4, 2002 was quite interesting to read about..  his legends and some records from the 1960s still stand today.

p.s.s. Appears some nice all around offerings in Kern County and west out San Luis Obispo Co. way..  couldn't quite swing Purisama (?sp) during this last visit to socal.  
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 02:17:05 PM by Steve Lang »
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Bill_McBride

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Re:William P. Bell's Courses vs son W.F. Bell Jr's
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2007, 10:00:56 PM »
Quote from: Steve Lang on January 30, 2007, 02:07:16 PM
p.s.s. Appears some nice all around offerings in Kern County and west out San Luis Obispo Co. way..  couldn't quite swing Purisama (?sp) during this last visit to socal.  

Keep trying, La Purisma is generally thought to be the best work ever of Robert Muir Graves.  It is really solid, long, wide, good greens although not wild by any means.
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Steve Lang

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Re:William P. Bell's Courses vs son W.F. Bell Jr's
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 10:13:05 PM »
 8)

Bill, I definitely plan on seeing La P next time..  

My thought was that WP Bell's course at Bakersfield CC and likely some of his other venues should not be lumped as Ran would as part of the "GCA Dark Ages"..  Perhaps only for the East Coast centric cognisenti (?sp).. ??
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Bill_McBride

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Re:William P. Bell's Courses vs son W.F. Bell Jr's
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 10:40:00 PM »
Quote from: Steve Lang on January 30, 2007, 10:13:05 PM
My thought was that WP Bell's course at Bakersfield CC and likely some of his other venues should not be lumped as Ran would as part of the "GCA Dark Ages"..  Perhaps only for the East Coast centric cognisenti (?sp).. ??

I completely agree.  I think Tucson CC, for example, has a great bunkering scheme that could use some sensitive restoration, but it's an excellent routing with a good mix of holes.  Forrest Richardson has reportedly done some really good work on Bell's Arizona Biltmore Adobe Course (I think).  Mike Erdmann mentions his home course, Ilahee Hills in Salem, OR, a very solid course.  These are really good courses that are the reputable descendants of George Thomas.  

"Dark Ages?"  I don't think so, at least not IMHO.  Any course with a Bell Sr or Jr lineage is worth a play.
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Forrest Richardson

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Re:William P. Bell's Courses vs son W.F. Bell Jr's
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2007, 11:25:28 PM »
Well, we had fun at The Adobe (Biltmore) in Phoenix. Tommy N. contributed and it came out to everyone's delight. Here is the restored and revitalized "Scotch & Soda Bunker" at No 9, a par-3.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 11:26:28 PM by Forrest Richardson »
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Jon Spaulding

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Re:William P. Bell's Courses vs son W.F. Bell Jr's
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2007, 12:07:01 AM »
Try San Clemente muni....9 holes by each of them!

I would 2nd the Castlewood/Hill recommendation.
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Troy Alderson

Re:William Bell's Courses
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2007, 12:14:43 AM »
Quote from: Mike_Erdmann on January 30, 2007, 12:43:46 AM
Jeff, was Forest Hills done by Bell Sr. or Jr.?  My club, Illahe Hills CC here in Salem, was Bell Jr. so I had always assumed that Forest Hills was Jr. as well since they are the only two Bell courses in Oregon.  Maybe Tommy can shed some light given his Oregon roots and knowledge of the Bells.

Mike,

Let's not forget, my old course as superintendent, Kah-Nee-Ta Resort front nine is Jr. also.  It is not undisturbed since the early 1970s but close enough.

Overall, Sr. was the better GCA.


Troy
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