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Phil Benedict

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How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« on: January 27, 2007, 07:51:21 PM »
With the exception of Pebble Beach, I can't think of any US Open venue where the 18th is a par 5.  For that matter, a par-5 finisher is pretty rare for any major.  How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines?  A 500 yard par 4?
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ed_getka

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2007, 10:33:49 PM »
500 yards isn't all that long for a par 4 these days, especially on that hole. I would expect at least 530 yards par 4 for a finishing hole. Could be another David Toms type finish.
   Don't forget we have almost of 2 years of distance gains before that Open. :-\
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Brad Klein

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2007, 11:28:03 PM »
Baltusrol-Lower is a par-5.
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Jim Nugent

Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2007, 11:39:16 PM »
Pebble Beach closes with a par 5.  I read the other day that 18 at Torrey will play as a 505 or so yard par 4.  
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Matt_Cohn

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2007, 11:41:34 PM »
I wish they were leaving it as a par-5. Like 7,600 yards isn't tough enough.

According to Google Earth there's a cart path between a couple of the tees that makes it impossible to play the hole between 495 and 520 yards - you have to be either shorter or longer (at least to the middle of the green).

From the 520+ tee, a good teeshot for most players will skirt the end of the last left bunker. It looks like an awkward shape to get the ball in the fairway given that the real landing area is about 50 yards further back.

From the 490 tee, none of the bunkers should be in play.

IIRC most converted par-4's aren't shortened very much from their par-5 tees: 520 par-5 becomes 495 par-4 in most cases. One that is shortened a lot is 17 at Olympic (from about 530 to 470), but the landing area is basically the same anywhere on that hole. However, that is not the case with 18 at TPS - the landing area as a par-4 looks awkward, and very difficult.
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Pete Lavallee

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2007, 08:03:37 AM »
The landing area and bunkers were redone just this past year, I doubt the USGA wants contestants blowing by these hazards. Tiger has been in the right fairway bunker both days, reaching the back of the green yesterday with a 5 wood. So the dillema is move the tee forward into the 520 range and Tiger just drives over all the trouble and has a mid iron into the green. My guess is we'll see at least 520, the 12th hole already plays 506 uphill and into the wind, so the finisher will need to be a bit tougher than that.
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"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mark Pearce

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2007, 10:04:35 AM »
Let's just hope they turn that bl**dy fountain off. >:(
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jfaspen

Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2007, 10:11:09 AM »
From a watchability perspective, I'd much rather see it played as a par 5.. Even if it was a short 5 of 520 or so.. Because of the rough, players would still need to hit the fairway, 2nd shot is over water and I'm sure the pin would be close to the front as it probably is today at the Buick..

Instead, we'll get to watch players have yet another hole where they struggle to make a par..  Played the way I suggest, it has the potential to be like 13 at Augusta National.

jf
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Phil Benedict

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2007, 11:00:22 AM »
Quote from: Brad Klein on January 27, 2007, 11:28:03 PM
Baltusrol-Lower is a par-5.

Brad,

I had forgotten about Baltusrol, which produced a great finish (which no one saw because it was on Monday).  Shift in wind direction made it a real par-5 - Phil needed a 3-wood to reach pin-high and Bjorn and Elkington had to settle for par.  Tiger hit 7-iron on Sunday with the wind at his back.

The problem with a long par 4 finish is that a long par 4 for these guys is 520 yards.  It's hard to produce a Corey Pavin at Shinnecock type finisher.
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Tom Roewer

Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2007, 11:00:32 AM »
This refers a bit to the thread about par recently, but I truly wish to never here the expression - "protecting par' again.  Just set the course up, knowing that 280 is a great score and go from there.  The USGA is far too worried about this "par" thing.  Do we really care if a player makes 5 on a "par3" or 3 on a "par 5'?  
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cary lichtenstein

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2007, 02:09:01 PM »
I don't like the set up of the right fairway bunker at 18, seems a bit stupid to me. It invades the fairway too much and punishes good drives.
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jim Sweeney

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2007, 06:52:31 PM »
Just a guess but I think (hope) it will be a par 5. The players will have to successfully challenge the bunker to give the green a go- and they still have to contend with the pond. The hole definitely fits the risk/reward format.

I agree that the fountain should be turned off for the Open.

I have never heard or read anything from a USGA official about "protecting par," except in response to a media question. The USGA believes that in the US OPen, par should be an excellent score, and if someone goes significantly lower, he should be lauded for doing so. BUt par has been, is, and always be the standard for excellence in the Open. I fail to see why that is a bad thing. MAybe the standard ought to be 12 under- how does one set up a golf course to protect 69?
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"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Jim Sweeney

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2007, 06:54:58 PM »
Here's something to ponder-

Where will the hole location be on Sunday of the Open? In the "traditional" Sunday location for the Buick Open? Is that what the USGA wants- for the OPen to be in the same class as the Buick?
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"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2007, 08:29:28 AM »
who cares what par it plays as.  Isn't the idea to have less strokes than your fellow competitors?  Par is an immaterial factor..

Oops - unless you're the USGA.  Then, par is sacred.

I still wish I had asked Tom Meeks about the USGA "we must defend par" fetish when I had the chance a couple of years ago.
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Philippe Binette

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2007, 08:46:49 AM »
I just hope they could skip that hole, and the 17 before it and play Riviera...

Seriously... it's no a golf course good enough to hold the US Open, it's just a golf course long enough.
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peter_mcknight

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Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2007, 12:19:35 PM »
525 yards, par 4.

I believe the 6th hole will play at 515 yards, par 4.

That means there will be 3 500+ yard par 4s at Torrey for next year's open (include the 12th at 505).
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John Kavanaugh

Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2007, 12:48:50 PM »
Once again Torrey Pines proved to be much greater than the guru's of GCA let on.  Not a boring hole to be had yesterday.  12, 13 and 14 always a treat with a long par 4, short par 5 and short par 4...
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JohnV

Re:How will the USGA set up the 18th at Torrey Pines for the Open?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2007, 01:11:31 PM »
For all the abuse that Torrey Pines gets here, every winner since 1996 has also won at least one major.

And if you give Peter Jacobsen credit for his US Open win in Tin Cup, the streak goes back to 1993. ;)

It is a golf course that requires good ball striking and putting.
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