[Don_Mahaffey]

As water resources become more limited (everyone seems to be predicting water will become more scarce for courses) we can probably expect more governmental agencies to begin to limit the amount of turf that can be used for golf courses. As many of you are aware courses built in AZ are limited to 90 acres of turf for the entire property. This seems to lead to lots of forced carries or very narrow holes. One of the things that makes desert courses play so narrow is often no recovery is possible from native areas. My question to the architects that frequent here, is it possible to design a course that has strategy and varying angles of attack with limited irrigated turf in the desert?

[Geoff Shackelford]

Don,
The numbers at Talking Stick are interesting. I don't believe they were limited to the traditional 90 acres of turf per 18, but even as wide as it is and as much fairway as their seems to be, I don't believe they went much over the 90 acres of turf per 18. I don't remember the numbers, but I do remember it was surprising that they didn't go far over 90 acres considering it feels pretty expansive.

So yes, there is still the potential for expansive fairways even with restrictions, it's just how you use the out of play areas, particularly off the tee and in other areas where so much turf seems wasted. Rustic Canyon has 72 acres of irrigated turf by the way. 8 of those acres are devoted to the approaches!
Geoff

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Don, As much as I disdain forced carries, it would seem the only way to maintain anges and strategy is to use them. I hope you do have such limitaions on your new course.

[SL_Solow]

I was told that because Talking Stick was on land belonging to Native Americans pursuant to treaty, the 90 acre rule was not in force.  It was my impression that the 90 acre rule was exceeded by a fair amount.

[Peter Galea]

Don,
Does unirrigated turf fit into the equation? If it doesn't count toward the total, this may be an option. Seed edges during the rainy season, let it go dormant when it will. It can be a good surface.

[A_Clay_Man]

Don, I'll reiterate what Pete suggests. And if as I suspect the look of the surrounds is similar to the look here in Nm. I cannot emphasis enough how beautifully the brown edges tie in the surrounds. Of course if your surrounds are verdant...nevermind.

[A_Clay_Man]

Don- I had hoped to see some wonderful responses to your initial Q about playing angles. So I'll bring it back to the forefront. I guess Geoff's response was closests and his 13th at Rc seems like the definitive use of line of charms and strategic options.  I used that hole as an example for Mario Ulbarri to think about how to make Riverview's front play more interestingly. You may remember Mario from a few years back at the gcsaa convention. He spoke  about the signature hole here at Pinon, also known as the arroyo or canyon hole. What's funny is when I first came to live here I kept goin into the pro-shop and asking how had they changed that hole. They almost had me convinced i was  remembering it wrong. Then two weeks ago I met Mario and he confirmed everything I had remembered, and when I mentioned the downed trees in the expansive wash, he smiled and said that he had dragged those dead trees in there. Vindication is wonderful thing and I know that we all hope yours comes soon.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I was surprised when I learned Rustic Canyon had only 74 acres of irrigated turf. Geoff, I'll take your word for it, but it sure seems like more then that. The interesting thing about RC is there are many angles of attack. Angles that you don't see on your typical limited turf designed AZ course. Why is that? Well, to me, first off you don't see many courses with a design like RC, limited turf or not. Anyone who has played a lot of desert golf like I have will tell you that nothing like RC exists at most desert courses. That's why I'd love to see what Hanse, Doak, C & C, or some of other up and comers (including Neal M.) would do where they are forced to limited turf acerage. Most desert courses are very hard for the high handicapper and very easy for the expert golfer, backwards as they should be, I believe. I know Doak is working with a desert site in Palm Desert and I wonder if the course will have a Big Horn feel, which is the closest thing to a limited turf course in the PS area, or if he will do something closer to Apache Stronghold where he used a lot of turf.

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