How good the architect?

[Doug Ralston]

I doubt this is a new topic, but I cannot recall seeing the numbers.

How good are most architects at play? We all know Nicklaus, Crenshaw, Palmer etc. So who are excellent architects but not so good golfers?

I ask partly because I am not a good player, and have been told that therefore I am not qualified to determine if a course is good as a golf challenge. Do lousy golfers ever create great courses? Luck?

Doug

[Garland Bayley]

Alister Mackenzie did ok as an architect for a hacker.

In his book he tells about meeting some old aquaintences who call him Mr. Two Shot hole. When he asked why they called him that, they said to him the last time we played with you and Max Behr you came up on the tee of a hole and said "this is a fine two shot hole". Halfway to the green you were in the right rough and Max was in the left rough. You called out to Max, "how many are you lying?" Max responded, "seven. How many are you lying?" to which you responded, "six".

[Tom_Doak]

As a 9 handicap now, and a 5 at my best, I am probably a below-average golfer by architect standards.  (I make up for it by being well-spoken.)

Now I know that most of the better players here will insist that it's only proper for architects to be good players, because it's important for architects to understand how good players play.  (Jack Nicklaus can explain this to you if you don't understand ... according to him, only a player of his caliber should be an architect.)

I believe there would have been many more good architects who weren't such great golfers, but that it hasn't happened because of the "good player bias".  Really good players often just dismiss the opinions of others who aren't as good as they are; thus, an architect who isn't a good player can't get people to take him seriously even if he has great design talent.  (And likewise, they will accept a golf pro as an architect just because he is a good player, whether or not he knows anything about design.)  

Even as a decent golfer, I sometimes have had to be careful about playing with potential clients for fear of losing my credibility if I play badly.  It's stupid, but it's true.

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom that was certainly a disheartening read to say the least. I post ugly numbers sometimes…. uhhhhh…. often but I don't think I'm an embarrassing golfer. Would you then say its better to look like your a good golfer rather than posting low scores? By looking good I mean hitting a good long ball and having a solid golf swing. It seems like hitting the ball 300 yards garners instant respect and praise.

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

I'm not a long bomber; most of any respect I earn for my game derives from short game and putting skills.  And that's fine with most people.  No one in the golf business is really in good form because we're all too busy, so that's a convenient excuse ... you just need to exhibit SOME game.

There are several notable exceptions to my rule, also, but courtesy prevents me from naming them.

[Forrest Richardson]

Jim Engh hits a ball very well. Steve Smyers is excellent. Jackie Nicklaus (II) is among the best...maybe +2??? Dana Fry (Hurdzan Fry) is a really good player. There are a host of awful playing architects. I will defer the temptation to expose them. I am 11, my personal best was 6-ish. A terrible arm fracture in 2002 changed my life in terms of golf (playing).

[paul cowley]

a 4 once upon a time ago.

[Doug Ralston]

Tom;

In my discussions with others on courses, I have tried to 'project'; that is, put myself into the position of 'real golfers' when I critique a course. I admit I cannot DO what I see the architect offering as possiblities on the course, but I feel I can often read it.

I love courses. If I was 25 rather than 55, I swear I would pursue your profession. Keep up all the great effort.

Doug

[Doug Ralston]

Paul;

I had a 4 once too, but the 7 on the next hole headed me back to reality  

Doug

[Forrest Richardson]

Paul C. — Was that a binary handicap?

[James Bennett]

Forrest

did you take Binary 101 at University?

Tom Doak

If these are the 'necessary' pre-requisites for a golf course architect, I think Forrest will also be obtaining a lot of resumes for his 'needle in a haystack' opportunity.

"As a 9 handicap now, and a 5 at my best, I am probably a below-average golfer by architect standards.  (I make up for it by being well-spoken.)" - Tom Doak

James B  

[Jordan Wall]

Ryan:

I'm not a long bomber; most of any respect I earn for my game derives from short game and putting skills.  And that's fine with most people.  No one in the golf business is really in good form because we're all too busy, so that's a convenient excuse ... you just need to exhibit SOME game.

There are several notable exceptions to my rule, also, but courtesy prevents me from naming them.

You seemed good at chipping..

Remember hole 2..
 

[Pete Garvey]

I have yet had the opportunity to play with Ron Prichard but I had the occasion to watch him hit a couple balls when he was doing the restoration of Idle Hour. (Ron, if you are reading this, you probably thought I wasn't paying attention)  His grip was solid and his swing pure.  He was/is a player!

[Jonathan Cummings]

Sorry Tom but that is (as you've said to me) utter bs.

No owner would care about the way you play golf.  Are you wining and dining potential clients that have no awareness of the RGD courses???  Malarky!  These guys care about your ability to design eye-opening layouts that will either make them money, fame or both.  They know about your design accomplishments LONG before they know about your golf game.

JC

[Ian Andrew]

"It is essential that [the architect] should eliminate his own game entirely, and look upon all construction work in a purely impersonal manner. He should be able to put himself in the position of the best player that ever lived, and at the same time be extremely sympathetic towards the beginner and long handicap player.

Alister Mackenzie

I personally find elite players have much more trouble understanding the perils of a poor player, than poor players have understanding the professional game.

The bias may be towards better players being thought to be better equiped as architects - but I think in many ways they have more to overcome.

[Tom_Doak]

JC:  What part of what I said was b.s.?

I think the only part of what I wrote that you could argue about is my last paragraph.  Certainly, today, I seldom have the problem -- although even recently I've been questioned by good players at a couple of the clubs where we consult, who think that because I'm not a long hitter I cannot understand the overriding importance of lengthening some of their holes 10 or 15 yards.  (Which is one of the reasons I am trying to stay out of the consulting business, to keep myself from punching some 2-handicap green chairman.)

But that's today.  My point was that it is hard for someone who is not a good player to get to the point I'm at today.  I will stand by what I said -- I think you would have seen a lot more talented architects who weren't very good players, except that potential clients can't get past their mediocre golfing ability.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Even as a decent golfer, I sometimes have had to be careful about playing with potential clients for fear of losing my credibility if I play badly.  It's stupid, but it's true.

Tom - I just find it impossible to believe that any of your potential clients would care about how you play golf.  They want to see your products.

BTW - there was another post on another discussion site where an 'authority' said he use to play with you 20 years ago at High Point when you were a plus 2.  No question you can whip my butt and I love you like a brother but I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

J

[Tom_Doak]

"I just find it impossible to believe that any of your potential clients would care about how you play golf.  They want to see your products."

As I said, that's mostly true now, except at existing clubs where there are always a few members who are certain they understand the course better than any architect could.  But back when I didn't have many products to show them, clients would form part of their opinion of me based on my golf game.  Luckily I looked like a +2 to somebody!  

You would be amazed to know how many of my early clients hadn't seen any of my other work before they hired me.  At High Pointe, of course, I had nothing to show them; but the clients at The Legends, Stonewall, Charlotte, and Quail Crossing didn't go to see any of my previous work before they made their decisions.  Some of that might have had to do with High Pointe being under snow when I interviewed for other jobs, but my point is that young architects are judged more for their character (including their golf) than on their early work.

[Ryan Farrow]

Let me throw this out there. From my experience the majority of aspiring golf course architects that I know either want to become a professional golfer first or are very low handicaps. Perhaps they only want to be a part of this profession because they think designing golf courses will be just as fun as playing golf. I consider these kids armchair architects at best. They will look at you crazy if you mention Charles Blair Macdonald or try to explain to them what a redan is. God forbid you tell them Tom Fazio and Rees Jones are not the best architects alive right now. I guess I’ll take my chances with my ahhhh… 13? handicap over some of these plus handicap buffoons who have never read a book in their life. I know there are some exceptions but is the majority really like this?