[DMoriarty]

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[wsmorrison]

Despite your taunts, insults and challenges, I will choose to stay away.  It has nothing at all to do with the merits, or lack thereof, of your position.  

However, can you really say that your method of introducing this thread is the best way to foster a discussion?  

[PThomas]

omygosh..yet another Merion thread???

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Why the mystery and the withholding of evidence?

You brought up the possibility of the 10th at Merion being a Cape Hole weeks ago, yet didn't offer to produce any documentation at that point.  Why not?

I'm quite sure you had those articles prior to making that claim, didn't you?

[SPDB]

Whose idea was the 14th at PVGC that was never built. That's a very small area over in that corner, and I think (Crump?) planned a cape hole that would sweep out into the pond.

That would seem to be a good example.

[TEPaul]

"Whose idea was the 14th at PVGC that was never built. That's a very small area over in that corner, and I think (Crump?) planned a cape hole that would sweep out into the pond.
That would seem to be a good example."

SPDB:

In my opinion, that hole was probably the best example of the real concept of NGLA's first and original cape hole I've ever heard of. The reason being it probably could've been surrounded on three sides by water as NGLA's original cape hole was.

The PV iteration's topography was much different because it would've been down hill from the tee with a fairway to the left that probably would've canted towards the green more than NGLA's.

I don't know whose idea that PV iteration was. It looks to be drawn onto the "blue/red line" topo by Crump but there is also a hole drawing version of it in the archives by what looks to be Travis.

If you want to try to visualize how it would've looked and sat on the land and played at PV just visualize a tee somewhere around where the tee is now for #14 (somewhere behind #13 green) to a green that would've been on the beginning of the 15th fairway (water front, right and behind). The fairway for this cape iteration would've been what is now referred to as the "Nature Walk"----eg the walk around the left side of the pond out to the 15 th fairway.

Also, Crump very well may've come pretty close to actually building this hole. If you look on the old aerials of PVGC you can see where it appears the trees were cleared out all along the "Nature Walk" for its fairway (Crump cleared a few areas at PV to look at potential hole iterations and then ended up not using them).

[Willie_Dow]

So where does Mid Ocean, Bermuda - fit into this picture ?

[JESII]

David,

I have just a very simple question about this topic.

Are you suggesting that the strategic concept of a hole like the 10th at Merion was solely dependent upon the creation of the 14th hole at NGLA?

[Phil_the_Author]

In Tilly's own words: Winged Foot West.

"No. 12. 482 yards. Cape. Three distinct hummocks make it into the left of the fairway, from which side the green is not visible. The drive should be played to the right as well as the second."

Interesting that in Tilly's concept of the hole there is no "forced diagonal carry" but rather a CHOICE of a diagonal carry. But over what? What is the hazard? In his case again there are choices ranging from the "three hummocks" to the trees guarding the corner of the turn and on into the green where the bunker front left may come into play if one goes for it in two.

In 1929 both Espinosa and Jones tried. In 1997 both Davis Love and Tiger woods went for it in two and missed right and in the rough.

In 2006, the USGA played the hole from a front tee on two days for the distinct purpose of encouraging players to consider the option and make the hole play more as it was designed by Tilly.

[TEPaul]

From A.W. Tillinghast:      

       "In a moment I shall discuss the simple twisting of the fairways of comparatively straight holes, but at this time let us consider the extreme types where the fairways snake around Dog-legs and Elbows.
        As a rule the two terms are used indiscriminately, but I always have made this distinction. A Dog-leg hole provides some pronounced obstruction, which forms a corner in a twisted fairway from either side. If it be impossible to carry over this obstruction, but at the same time necessary to get beyond it in order to open up the next shot, we have a Dog-leg.
         If a similar obstruction maybe carried by a courageous shot, which is rewarded by a very distinct advantage, we have an Elbow.
         There is still a third variation, where a corner is formed close by the green itself, usually by the encroachment of a hillside or sandy waste, and this type is known as a Cape hole.”

Tillinghast’s definition of a cape hole seems to almost perfectly describe Pine Valley’s 12th and Merion’s 10th. Flynn did some holes like Merion’s 10th before Merion’s 10th. It’s hard to say when PVGC’s 12th was designed, maybe in the latter part of 1917 but it had not been opened for play before Crump’s death.

Flynn and the Wilsons along with Crump’s super Jim Govan brought PV’s 12th into play. I know how the design of PV’s 12th evolved into what it became. The last part of the hole and the green was dependent on the development of the 13th hole and the 12th green probably was designed to conform to the 13th tee (Crump wanted basically a ramp from the 12th green down to the 13th tee). Crump wanted the green to play like Myopia’s 16th green (this is in the archives). The original 12th iteration by Crump/Colt was a fairly straight hole of around 400 yards and the green was out to the right of the present 12th green and probably farther along.

In short the 12th at Pine Valley was not borrowed off Macdonald’s NGLA Cape hole concept. At least if it was George Crump apparently didn’t realize it. As mentioned above the way PV’s 12th design came into being was something that was dependent on another hole or two at PVGC. It was not a design that was at first arrived at as some hole copy. PV's #12 just evolved slowly into what it is.  (But again, that PV 14th hole iteration that was never built was perhaps the best example I’ve ever seen of a really close conceptual copy of NGLA’s #14).

Now, someone on here is saying that a cape hole does not have a tee shot across a diagonally formed and diagonally oriented fairway??? That’s pretty interesting as perhaps the most famous cape hole in the world is exactly that---eg a tee shot to an amazing diagonal fairway bordered all along the left by water. This is the ultra good Mid Ocean’s #5 that is appropriately named “The Cape Hole”. Who designed it? Macdonald did.

And the claim is being made that Macdonald invented the cape hole or cape hole concept? Well, what if we happen to find a hole that fits the cape hole concept, even the one  described above by Tillinghast that preceded Macdonald’s cape hole at NGLA? Would Macdonald really be considered to have invented the hole or the concept in that case? And if so, how could that be if there was one on a course that preceded his NGLA?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Moriarty,

I think you're forgetting a critical element in the reconfiguring of the 10th at Merion and the 14th at NGLA.

Both reconfigurations weren't driven by architectural philosophies or design principles.

The were driven by necessity, with a road and safety being primary catalysts.

In light of the property constraints and the configuration of the golf course, the new 10th hole green was more of a default option, rather than a creative, prefered design concept

I think function trumped the adoption of a template or of the principles associated with a template.

Another viable optioin might have been to make the hole a par 3, but, I don't believe that the terrain lended itself to creating a par three.  In addition, one preceeded it and another was only a few holes removed.

The connection between the 14th at NGLA, original and revised, and the reconfigured 10th at Merion isn't CBM related, IMO.  I think necessity, function and limited land overrides any attempt to credit the redesign as being inspired by CBM.

But, I admire your continued efforts to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

[TEPaul]

"I found the Merion 10 article just a few weeks ago, and the Flynn quotes yesterday.  TEPaul challenged me on my description of Merion 10 as a cape around the time I found the Merion article, and I told him that I couldnt respond because it was too big an issue, but that I might start a thread on it when the other thread died down."

David:

Let me get something really clear here lest it gets miscontrued and continues on in these threads.

I did not challenge you that Merion's 10th or even Pine Valley's 12th did not fit the description of a cape hole. I merely said I don't know that Merion's 10th was designed off the Macdonald Cape hole at NGLA. And I most certainly don't believe PV's 12th was designed off NGLA's 12th hole. I think I explained above how PV's 12th came to be the way it is. In my opinion, there isn't much doubt Merion's #10 is very similar to PV's 12th which preceded it. The similarities in the two holes is very understandable to me and the Wilsons and Flynn along with Crump's Jim Govan finished off the last four unfinished holes at PV which included the 12th.

There were a number of architectural concepts that William Flynn picked up for his time at PV. Flynn was a member of PV and actually Toomey was on PV's board.

You will see that Merion's 10th and PV's 12th almost perfectly fit Tillinghast's definition of a cape hole but Tillinghast never said a cape hole was invented by Macdonald either. Who said a cape hole was invented by Macdonald other than George Bahto?

Again, what if we find a hole that preceded NGLA that is a very close resemblence of anyone's definiton back then of a cape hole?

[TEPaul]

"The line from the 14th tee is slightly longer than 225, and the hole about 325, but obviously the dogleg and the tee could be adjusted considerably.  Looks like it would have been a really cool hole.  But then all the other do too as well."

I actually scaled the hole off the map about 3-4 years ago and I got a length of close to 240 right at the green over water and around 300+ if played conservatively to the left to the fairway. But of course it's considerably downhill from that high tee so it would play a little shorter. That thing could have been one of the world's coolest half pars. Talk about a great match play hole.

Maybe, you've never seen me say it on here but Crump was truly unsettled about his 15th hole just before he died (according to Simon Carr). I think he was thinking about turning #16 back into his back nine par 5. That would have left #15 as a par 4 and if it had been he just may've done this incredible cape hole iteration for #14. I know it's heretical to say PV could be even better but these iterations of #14, #15 and #16 just may have made it so, believe it or not.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

It just helps the healthy discussion if everyone puts their cards on the table upfront.

Otherwise, some people may think someone who doesn't do so has ulterior motives that might be less about getting to the truth of the architectural history and more about trying to make others look foolish or uninformed.

I have no time to participate in personal vendettas.   If this is a serious, sincere thread, and it certainly has the potential to be, then let's drop this shite about who said what, when, where, and let's talk about architecture.

Sound good?  

[TEPaul]

"Not trying to start a fight, but Bahto wrote that Macdonald was the first designer Crump had out to look at the property  Is it possible that they saw this hole at this every early stage and that is why it is on multiple maps?"

David:

No, that is not possible at all. I know you're not trying to start a fight and either am I but I'll tell you something very genuinely. George is a good friend of mine but I don't give a good God-damn if he said Macdonald was the first designer Crump had out to look at the property, that is simply not the case---no way, no how. If it is, I would really like to see him prove that to me. I would just love to see him prove that to me because if he could (which I can basically guarantee is impossible) I just can't tell you how interesting that would be.

I would seriously doubt that Macdonald arrived on that property for the first time within a year and a half and probably more than that of when Tillinghast first went out there with Crump or was told about it by Crump. Tillinghast may've known about that site from Crump as early as the winter of 1912. Crump didn't even buy the place until the fall of 1912.  

That Cape hole iteration I just described may not have even been thought of before late 1916 or early 1917.

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

You asked, "I am confused.  Doesnt Tillinghast say that both shots should be played  to the right?  I guess I fail to see the choice, but don't know the hole, so perhaps if you explain?"

The 12th hole at WFW is a par-five that is safely played as a three-shotter with the first two shots along the right side of the fairway bringing one to a short pitch that comes straight into the green with nothing but fairway in-between.

The reason that Tilly's Cape Hole is so interesting is that one CAN gamble and go for it in two. If they do, or did as in Tilly's day, the play would be down the elft-hand side. The drive would first find itself traversing the 3 "hummocks" and the second shot would then be played, depending on the length of the drive, over three separate obstacles, each of which creates a "blinding" of the green to the player.

These are the "Hummocks," the trees and the bunker that is on the left front to the green.

That is your choice. Go fo it in two and it plays like a classic "Cape" or play it as a three-chotter and face no obstacles and have an open and clear shot into a green that is highly visible.

[TEPaul]

"Mr. Dow,
I am not at home and do not have Bahto's book with me, but I think Bahto wrote that the cape at Mid Ocean does (or did?) stick out in the water at least partially, but that it is difficult to tell because of the brush.  
I am not sure I understood your question, but I hope this helps."

Willie:

He's not sure he understands the question.  I sure understand your question and I sure do understand the point of it too, and I'm pretty certain everyone else on this website who's seen that hole does as well.

He thinks George Bahto wrote that the cape at Mid Ocean does (or did?) stick out in the water at least paritially, but it's difficult to tell because of the brush?

The cape sticks out in the water?? What cape would that be? Do you think he's referring to the green on Mid Ocean's #4? I think all of us who've played that magnificent hole know the green isn't a cape that sticks out in the water, don't we?  

I think we who've played that hole understand that the essence of the hole is the magnificent drive from on high across that wonderful fairway set at such a beautiful diagonal, don't you think?  

[Brian Phillips]

The 10th is the only hole on that side of the road that plays straight across the property back towards the clubhouse.  

How else would an architect have designed the hole knowing the amount of space needed to get the other holes back down to the other corner and back again?  You are certainly not going to dogleg the hole right when you know you have to fit in the 11th tees and the 12th hole back again to that top corner.

The architect has used a short par 4 in the same way an architect would use a par 3 to climb a hill or change directions in a routing.

The beauty of the hole is not just the risk and reward of the hole but the absolute geniality of managing to switch direction on such a tight site.  The road and that corner of the property has forced the hole to be designed that way.

The 10th is not (IMHO) a 'cape' hole because the angle of the fairway is too straight from the tee.  There is not enough angle to 'bite' off as much as you want.  You either go for the green or just hit the fairway up as far as you want for you favourite short iron in.  There is no rick or reward up the fairway.  

If the 10th is a 'cape' then the 12th must be a 'cape' as well, perhaps even more so as you can slice it around the corner and cut off as much of the fairway as you want to get as close to a protected green jutting out into the rough.

Can you really have a 'cape' hole that plays uphill?

The first 'cape' hole is probably hole 1 at Machrihanish.  If the green jutted out onto the beach it would be even more smilar to what is regarded as a cape hole in America.

See Robert Muir Graves and Geoffrey Cornish's book 'Classic Golf Hole Design' for many diagrams and suggestions of what a 'cape' hole.  

I disagree with the assumption that it is just the green angle that defines what a cape hole is. It is the angle of the fairway as well as the green being fronted by disaster on the inside of the green.  

It is not the angle of the green because a green can be round yet still be part of a cape hole.  It is the angle of the hazard on the inside of the green that defines the hole.  Not the angle of the green.

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

You stated in the very first paragraph of this thread that, "Most of us are aware that the original cape green the description “cape hole” is now applied to just about any hole with a forced diagonal carry where the golfer has the option of cutting of as much of the hazard as the golfer is willing to risk, in order to gain an advantage over the shorter hitter."

After I outlined Tilly's Cape Hole on #12 of WFW you stated, "From the sounds of it, the hole may have played more like a cape hole for the play up the right.  I dont think cape holes were supposed to be drivable, and the equivalent on a par 5 would be one that was not reachable in two.  That is why I wondered if Tillinghast really meant the hole to be realistically drivable, or if the left shot might have been the equivalent of a short shot on a true cape-- a possible par, but much more difficult."

I guess you didn't understand what I wrote. Whther a Cape Hole was "supposed to be drivable" or not or as on a par-five "reachable in two" #12 was designed to reward the heroic shot from the day it opened for play.

Your original definition stated that there was, "a FORCED diagonal carry where the golfer has the option of cutting of as much of the hazard as the golfer is willing to risk..."

There is a CHOICE on #12 and not a single "forced" carry.

Secondly, there is no hazard of any type between the player and the green if he plays down the right hand side twice and then a short pitch in... none. Yet the definition as you posted it requires a diagonal hazard where the player must choose just how "much of the hazard as the golfer is willing to risk, in order to gain an advantage over the shorter hitter."

That is why I stated in my original post that Tilly's concept of this hole type as he created at WFW was very interesting and different from the standard ones done by CBM.

You also stated in response to Tom Paul that, "It seems like Tillinghast's definition is the same as Macdonald's.  If his concept did not come from Macdonald, then why does he call it a cape?"

You are incorrect here as well.

As I pointed out to you on the Merion thread, Tilly went to the UK on golfing trips three separate times. these were all years BEFORE CBM designed NGLA and other courses where he created template holes of his Cape type. In addition I also brought to light the Tillinghast quote from his short article about CBM after he died in the 30's wherein he stated that he took exception to CBM's design philosophy and in particular to how he forced template holes onto sites rather than letting the site dictate if a particular hole type would work well.

Tilly was definitely NOT influenced by or follow CBM's design philosophies in any way.

You began the thread by stating, "The fourteenth hole at National Golf Links is called the Cape Hole, because the green extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded upon by three sides. -- C.B Macdonald, Golf Illustrated and Outdoor America, August 1914."

Is it your contention that only holes whose green "extends out into the sea with which it is surrounded upon by three sides" qualifies as a "Cape" hole?

Tilly was definitely NOT influenced by or follow CBM's design philosophies in any way.

[Mark_Fine]

I have no time to participate in these threads that get so heated and vindictive and carry on for weeks (they don't do this website or the individuals involved any good either).  Nor do I want to speculate on the motives of who what why or how #10 at Merion was designed.  However, I will quickly say that I have always considered the 10th at Merion as a form of a "cape hole".  There are clearly "diagonal" carry options off the tee (depending on how long a hitter you are), and the green is surrounded on three sides with trouble.  Those are the two things I look for in what I consider the twisted definition of a cape.  Maybe Brian is right in that the hole was designed more as function of need, but one way or the other, it still fits the accepted definition/s of a cape hole.  

I'm running back to look at more civil threads  

[Mike_Cirba]

If "someone" looks foolish and uninformed, it was not my doing.

Sound good?
____________________________

Yep.  

Have a nice discussion.

See ya.

[TEPaul]

Does the name cape suggest that Macdonald invented the concept?

Well, I wouldn't really know but there is obviously a very good way of finding out if Macdonald invented the concept. If a hole can be found that predated NGLA's #14 or Mid Ocean's #5 that is of very similar strategic principle and configuration, then logically I would have to say that Macdonald didn't invent the concept but he may've invented the name for the concept.

Does the 5th green at Mid Ocean jut out into the water?

No, not really (whether there are bushes or no bushes at any particular time along the shoreline ) and I think that has always been something of a question about that otherwise world class hole.

However, I've always felt, and others who concern themselves seriously with this kind of question seem to feel, that the question is not really an appropriate one for the simple reason most people just get confused because the reality is the "cape" type hole in fact has two definitions for two types of hole strategies or playing characteristics whether C.B. Macdonald or anyone else admitted it or liked it or not. And that those two types of definitions and two types of playing characteristics and strategies are pretty distinct from one another.

The fact is the strategic ramifications from tee to green of NGLA's #14 and Mid Ocean's #5, as well as a number of other things about those two holes such as their lengths, tee shot requirements, green configurations etc, are just pretty distinct from one another and there is no amount of arguing on here or spliting hairs on here about greens jutting out into water or some other hazards or green orientation that is going to change that fact.

The point is, David, that for a variety of reasons that are virutally undeniable, a hole like Mid Ocean's #5 is pretty different in strategic ramifications and in other ways from a hole like NGLA's original #14 or Merion's 10th or Pine Valley's #12.

I would be glad to explain to you in detail why that is and what that is, as I'm sure others would too who have played most all these holes.

But what I hope doesn't happen is that we need to go on for numerous pages arguing with you that we are wrong and you are right that one or the other is not a real cape hole particularly since you've never seen Mid Ocean's and we have.

And I certainly don't want to get into debating endlessly if all holes that are called "cape" whether of the Mid Ocean's #5 variety (Cape is actually the name of the hole) or a type like Merion's #10 and Pine Valley's #12 both of which fits almost perfectly into A.W. Tillinghast's definition of a cape hole, should all be attributed somehow to Charles Blair Macdonald!

[Bryan Izatt]

Re: does #5 MOC jut into the ocean.  Well, sort of (although it's really a lake).



What's the point in debating named holes, their features, or their provenance when there's no agreed minimum requirement for such holes - then or now.

[Bryan Izatt]

As another modern example of a "cape" hole, I offer the 12th at St Andrews Valley - my home course in Aurora, ON.  Designed by Rene Muylaert.

It's a par 4 of about 360 yards with a close to 90* elbow to the right.  The inside of the elbow is a lake.  A direct carry over the lake to the green is about 280 yards.  A drive down the fairway is about 240 yards to the middle of the turning point.  The shot from the turning point is along the length of the green, however there is a small pot bunker that effectively eliminates a run-up shot.  Lastly, the green is surrounded tightly on 3 sides by water (in the form of a loop in a slow moving river).  The loop in the river is natural, although the green site is pushed up about 6 to 8 feet from the usual water level.

Does this qualify as a cape hole under both definitions?  Nobody I know of has ever described it as a cape hole.  It is appropriately named "Surrounded" on the scorecard.

Regretably the satellites haven't done the high resolution pictures that far north yet, so no aerials to show.

[JESII]

Re: does #5 MOC jut into the ocean.  Well, sort of (although it's really a lake).



What's the point in debating named holes, their features, or their provenance when there's no agreed minimum requirement for such holes - then or now.

Bryan,

Any chance you can identify the tee location of this hole? I think it will have relevance to this conversation. Thanks.

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