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Steve Pozaric

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2007, 11:02:19 PM »
Robert Foulis built the old Forest Park golf course in St. Louis and it has a rectangular green:

Forest Park

Jim Healy did an interview/story about a couple of years ago:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewhealey.html
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 11:04:27 PM by Steve Pozaric »
Steve Pozaric

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Square Greens
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2007, 11:23:41 PM »
Don't square greens put a greater premium on the approach and recovery when the hole is located in/toward the corners ?

Aren't they far more demanding ?

Cassandra Burns

Re:Square Greens
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2007, 09:29:20 AM »
I don't know, don't square or rectangular greens seem really artificial and man-made?  I don't like them, personally.  They take me out of my reverie of being in a natural setting.  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 09:29:34 AM by Cassandra Burns »

Kirk Gill

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2007, 10:02:07 AM »
I don't know, don't square or rectangular greens seem really artificial and man-made?  I don't like them, personally.  They take me out of my reverie of being in a natural setting.

Do square tee boxes make you feel the same way?

I can't say I've ever played on a course that had a truly square green, but if we're talking about strategic interest, the corners of such greens seem like difficult targets, as Mr. Mucci mentioned, particularly if the orientation of the square is that you are hitting into more of a diamond, with one corner of the square pointing right at you.

Also, have we overlooked the Rhombus green?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2007, 10:16:21 AM »
Bob Cupp built what amounts to a square green (somewhat diamond shaped, I guess) on the 12th hole at Savannah Harbor.  You don't notice the corners so much because the green is just immense (17,000 sq. ft.), literally big enough to have football practice on!  (I know this because I hit what I thought was a sweet 4 iron onto the green, only to find out that I was 75 yds. from the flag.)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Mark_Fine

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2007, 06:35:04 PM »
I just returned from a full day at The Golf House at the USGA doing research for a few projects.  You can't imagine how many pictures of "squarish" old greens I saw going through old issues of Golf Illustrated and American Golfer.  I can't recall one that looked like a circle.  Keep in mind when we talk about square (at least when I am talking about square) I am not talking about a uniform box with perfectly straight edges.  The Ross drawing I posted here earlier is an example.  I consider that a square green.  Furthermore, if one corner was extended a bit further and/or rolled out a bit more, I would still consider it to be mostly a squarish green.  There are of course greens that go to a point in the corners and have very straight edges, but they were not as common.  

Here is an example of a "Ross" green that is now a circle but at one time was mostly "square".


Kris Spence

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2007, 06:53:52 PM »
TEPaul,

Im not sure I can answer your question, but I can tell you when laying out greens I routinely create a preliminary square with pin flags to establish initial size (easy to measure front to back depth and side to side width) This also sets the strategic angle if applicable.  From this basic square I can establish cuts and fills based on the grade at each corner flag and center flag.  If I chose to protrude a corner or curve/bend a side or front edge to strengthen a pin position, it is easy to manage the size as you go.

I suspect this had something to do with it back in the day also.  I have seen many sets of Ross plans where each green started with same square dimension, yet the finished product included much more variety in the end.  

Tim Bert

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2007, 06:55:33 PM »
I just referenced a rectangular green on the "most unique green" thread, not realizing that this thread was also up on the board...


Mark_Fine

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2007, 07:03:26 PM »
Kris,
I agree with you for the most part regarding what an architect drew and what he ended up building.  They had to start somewhere and there were always adjustments in the field.  Very few forced fit their drawings into the ground if an adjustment here or there made sense and made it better.  

Tim,
Very cool picture.  There are some of those out there.
Mark

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Square Greens
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2007, 07:10:37 PM »
the hole in mark fine's picture is a 190 yard par three with the tee on a line comming from behind the camera.  a blind punchbowl par 3!  i have never seen anything like this hole in the usa.  funny thing about it, is having played the course numerous times, watching the shots go over the hill i could easily tell if they were on the green or not.

D_Malley

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2007, 07:11:10 PM »
love that picture, mark

D_Malley

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2007, 07:12:07 PM »
do you have a pic of the view from the tee?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Square Greens
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2007, 07:33:10 PM »
When we finish with that green it will no longer be a circle  ;D
I'm sure I have a photo from the tee but I have to run out for now.  I'll try to get to it later and/or tomorrow.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Square Greens
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2007, 08:01:47 PM »
Here is the view from the tee to that circle green that once was much more squarish.  


Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Square Greens
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2007, 08:21:16 PM »
Pinehurst #1 and #2 had all square greens throughout. But Donald Ross wasn't the only master of the square green - take a look at the 112 yard dropshot Par 3 at Richmond, where they actually framed it for even greater effect :)


Pinehurst #1, 1901


Pinehurst #1, 1904


Richmond, 1900

What fun! They just don't make 'em like that anymore! ;-)

Ulrich
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 08:22:38 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Square Greens
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2007, 08:48:42 PM »
thanks mark, that is an extremely unique hole.  i wonder if there is anything like it anywhere else in the united states

Yancey_Beamer

Re:Square Greens
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2007, 01:42:01 AM »
Robert Trent Jones first course,Midvale G&CC(1931)in Penfield,New York has square greens.This course is from the era of partnership with Stanley Thompson.

Cassandra Burns

Re:Square Greens
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2007, 10:06:14 AM »
I don't know, don't square or rectangular greens seem really artificial and man-made?  I don't like them, personally.  They take me out of my reverie of being in a natural setting.

Do square tee boxes make you feel the same way?

I can't say I've ever played on a course that had a truly square green, but if we're talking about strategic interest, the corners of such greens seem like difficult targets, as Mr. Mucci mentioned, particularly if the orientation of the square is that you are hitting into more of a diamond, with one corner of the square pointing right at you.

Also, have we overlooked the Rhombus green?

I've played the square green at Forest Park several times, and I always think it just looks Mickey Mouse, especially in comparison to the rest of the course.  Well, it's a rectangular green, but it definitely has straight sides and sharp corners.  I don't mind if a green is squarish, with some irregularity to its shape and its corners rounded off, but it's the straight lines and sharp corners that really just don't seem right at all.  I wonder if they keep it that way for historical reasons?  I think the Forest Park course was built around the time of the World's Fair of 1904.  Isn't that the "geometrical" period of golf architecture?

I'm not sure why, but I don't have the same feeling about tee boxes.  I wonder if it's because the great majority of tee boxes are pretty squared off, so it's a normative feature on a golf course?  Or maybe it's because the tee box is where we launch into a new adventure.  Like, the tee box represents on each hole some sort of home base (our houses are all square, after all), so it's like civilization - it's where we can put a tee into the ground.  But then the rest of the course is nature, it's round and irregular.  Maybe I'd like irregular tee boxes more as well, if I had a chance to play them with any regularity.  Whenever I doodle the odd golf hole, I always put in a large, long, irregular teeing ground, something that blends in to the enviroment to some extent.

Finally, I haven't really noticed any extra strategic-ness about the squared-off green.  They usually don't cut the hole that close to the corner, and even when they do it doesn't come off as any more strategic than any other tight pin location.  In the end I think the corner of the corner is just wasted space.  On the other hand, I think the straight lines of the green may add some measure of visual deception to reading the break of a putt.  Maybe.

I just prefer a more natural look, I guess.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Square Greens
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2007, 12:42:10 PM »
 In Paul Daley's terrific book, 'Golf Architecture - A Worldwide Perspective - Volume 3', Greg Ramsay wrote an excellent report on Ratho Links in Bothwell, Tasmania.  In it, Greg describes the necessity of square greens as the most efficient design in building a fence around them for protection from undisciplined sheep. So, more than the earthmoving concerns, the economics of raising livestock was the priority of the land, and not the frivolity of golf.

  Get your chores done and THEN you can play golf.




« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 02:40:48 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Forrest Richardson

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— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tim Liddy

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Re:Square Greens
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2007, 08:39:11 AM »
  :)

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Square Greens
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2007, 09:43:28 AM »
I applaud the art director for Nike's latest TV commercial.  ;D
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Punchbowl

Re:Square Greens
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2007, 10:24:37 AM »
#15 at NGLA...Narrows....has been recently expanded and is now essentially a square green.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Square Greens
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2007, 04:50:45 PM »
Isle of Barra has square greens, fenced in to keep out livestock.
http://www.isleofbarra.com/GolfGallery.html

Life memberships on offer for 100 quid.  Sorry, no Brits...

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