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Dan Herrmann

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What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« on: January 25, 2007, 01:22:48 PM »
I was thinking about the "Great courses that aren't inspring" thread, and I had a question pop up.

What hole do you think is most important to "get right" from an architectural standpoint? Asked differently, which hole should never be less than excellent on a great golf course?

Or - which hole could concessions be made safely?


I'd pitch that 1 and 16, 17, and 18 are very imporant to get right.  On the other hand, 6 and 7 could be holes where a lesser product may suffice.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 01:23:43 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2007, 01:36:07 PM »
Dan,

The simple answer is all of them.  To split hairs, all should play well and offer some challenge, and look decent, but the variety often comes in the aesthetics part.  As to play, should the gca decide to force a fade that you can't play, or a precision long iron which you don't like, that can be somewhat subjective.

My actual experience in designing courses is that if I try as hard as I can and know how to do 18 excellent holes, some always come out a little less desireable than others.  

Its probably due to lesser land (since holes have to connect, sometimes you get one on average land to make others better) but also, it diminishes the spectacular holes somewhat if every stinkin hole is dramatic and sometimes we purposely lay back for a combo of reasons.

If that is your premise, and I had to pick, I would agree that you should have a strong opener and finish, but perhaps move the average holes up as early as 3-4 rather than your suggestion of 6-7, just to get them as early in the round as possible, and give a greater chance to forget them.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 01:45:55 PM »
Dan:

I suspect that a lot of architects think the 18th hole is most important, and because of that you are often bored to death by the time you get there.

One hole doesn't make or break a course, so there is no one most important hole.

That said, one of the theories Mike Keiser has about the flow of a golf course is that if you can put a couple of highlight holes spaced properly through the round, you can get away with lesser holes on either side of them because people are too busy remembering the star attraction.  He came up with that theory when we played Portrush together back in 1995 ... and you can see its application at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, with the highlight holes coming at similar places in the round, and NOT at the end.

Personally, over the years I have come to believe that the starting 3-4 holes are more important than people (including Jeff) give them credit for ... if you haven't made me fall in love with the course by then, you're probably not going to get me.

Phil Benedict

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 01:47:50 PM »
To the extent particular holes are singled out, what you hear is "great finishing hole" and less frequently "great opening hole."  I'm not sure what either is supposed to mean.  

Kyle Harris

Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 01:53:56 PM »
Which ever point in the course of the round when the course starts to really test you. Vague yes, but the golf course (at least the great or worth ones) usually have a point where from there on in, you'll see what the course is truly testing.

For Augusta National, this probably starts when the golfer stands on the 11th tee.

That being said, which hole being most important is definitely site dependent.

Mark Pearce

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 02:01:31 PM »
Dan:

I suspect that a lot of architects think the 18th hole is most important, and because of that you are often bored to death by the time you get there.

One hole doesn't make or break a course, so there is no one most important hole.

That said, one of the theories Mike Keiser has about the flow of a golf course is that if you can put a couple of highlight holes spaced properly through the round, you can get away with lesser holes on either side of them because people are too busy remembering the star attraction.  He came up with that theory when we played Portrush together back in 1995 ... and you can see its application at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, with the highlight holes coming at similar places in the round, and NOT at the end.

Personally, over the years I have come to believe that the starting 3-4 holes are more important than people (including Jeff) give them credit for ... if you haven't made me fall in love with the course by then, you're probably not going to get me.
I wonder how many courses have very ordinary first holes?  Panmure is a beautiful golf course but its first hole is little more than a mowed field.  It serves little purpose other than to get you from the clubhouse to the second tee, where the fun begins.  Are there others like that?  I suppose a real controversialist (if there exists such a word) might suggest TOC.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Andy Troeger

Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 02:14:07 PM »
I would have to think that Tom's premise of spacing out the best holes would have to be pretty spot on. Whistling Straits and Arcadia Bluffs are both good examples of this (with the current routing at Arcadia). Both come and go from the lake-side holes so as to have some kind of balance and no long stretches away from the water (or as little as possible in Arcadia's case). With both courses, #18 would not be the most memorable hole, and its been argued (and I would tend to agree) that #18 at WS is anything but a fantastic finisher. #17 on the other hand...  ;D

George Pazin

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 02:17:30 PM »
Something that has alwasy intrigued me, when reading about courses I haven't played on here, is when people can't even agree if a hole is weak or not, or great or not.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Joe Bentham

Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 04:49:12 PM »
Something that has alwasy intrigued me, when reading about courses I haven't played on here, is when people can't even agree if a hole is weak or not, or great or not.
they are questions without 'right' and 'wrong' answers

Sean_A

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2007, 09:16:41 AM »
I reckon I am probably more forgiving at the start and end of a course.  When I think of the highlights of the very best courses I have seen, the finisher and starter are not among the best holes with the exception of Burnham and perhaps St. Enodoc.  Like writing, it is best to grab one's attention fairly quickly, but not necessarily with the best holes.  The ending needs something, but often just a fade out works.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2007, 10:08:23 AM »
Dan:

I suspect that a lot of architects think the 18th hole is most important, and because of that you are often bored to death by the time you get there.

One hole doesn't make or break a course, so there is no one most important hole.

That said, one of the theories Mike Keiser has about the flow of a golf course is that if you can put a couple of highlight holes spaced properly through the round, you can get away with lesser holes on either side of them because people are too busy remembering the star attraction.  He came up with that theory when we played Portrush together back in 1995 ... and you can see its application at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, with the highlight holes coming at similar places in the round, and NOT at the end.

Personally, over the years I have come to believe that the starting 3-4 holes are more important than people (including Jeff) give them credit for ... if you haven't made me fall in love with the course by then, you're probably not going to get me.

I take the fifth! (As in I would be happy to move the "dogs" (or pussycats) no closer to the start than the fifth!)  Actually, I know that in making speeches/presentations, speakers either grab an audience in the first 17 seconds or lose them forever.  I don't know what that translates to in golf terms, but I figured the first hole, or maybe the second at best.

I also agree with Tom that flow is more important than any particular hole, and when talking about "getting holes right"  we might be talking visual, play, or most likely a combination of the two, and their context within other holes.  

To grab a player, you probably want to get them off to a good start, and also have some good visuals on the first hole (or two).  That is by no means a formula, but many people do like a benign first hole.  I am also conscious of providing a few easier holes throughout the round, and the possibility of double starts, so the "ideal" w/o land considerations, and considering overall flow, the placement of slightly easier holes might be 1,5,10, and 15, as an example. (It rarely works out that way and some courses are memorable for their difficult or great first holes)  As Tom notes, harder or more spectacular holes might be just ahead and a few holes behind those, at least in theory, and I have always believed in easier or memorable 18th holes, like reachable 4's or 5's in place of the long hard 4, but have some of each in my work.

I think he would agree that you work each individual hole until you think its the best it can be, as I said in my first statement, knowing that we can't control perceptions and they aren't universal (i.e, the 6th just doesn't fit my game).  
So, some golfers will find any particular hole more or less pleasing than others.

But, I don't mind thinking in terms of general theory!  That is, after all, what we are here for, no? And, as gca's, we really don't start with a totally blank mental canvass - it helps to have some idea of why you generally MIGHT do something given any particular set of circumstances - i.e., try to avoid five tough holes in a row, so you tone down the features on two of them, etc. Or, better yet, tone down one type feature on the first of that sequence, say bunkers, and tone down the green on the next, etc.

As I preview this, I can hear the howls coming, although for the life of me, I can't imagine why.  If we talk about flow, then a gca MUST eventually think about it in very specific terms, rather than the generalized "go with the land", etc.

 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2007, 10:18:49 AM »
Jeff:

I agree with most of your points, especially the last -- I always think about the flow of the golf course before I'm done with the routing.  I just don't have one preferred idea as to the best flow ... I go with the flow on that.

The one thing I don't consider nearly as much as you is the importance of the tenth hole as a second starting point.  To me, unless you're in Myrtle Beach, a low percentage of rounds is played starting at #10, and most golfers accept that when they do start at 10 the flow of the course was not designed from that point.

In fact, when I came back to post here before reading your note, I was going to say that on second thought, I think the "least important" holes in the overall sequence are holes 10 and 12.  I say that only because when I've done "eclectic 18" studies over the years, those are the two holes where the choices seem to be the least varied.

Scott Szabo

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2007, 10:36:58 AM »

Personally, over the years I have come to believe that the starting 3-4 holes are more important than people (including Jeff) give them credit for ... if you haven't made me fall in love with the course by then, you're probably not going to get me.

Bingo!
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

wsmorrison

Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2007, 10:40:59 AM »
Tom, Jeff and other contributing architects,

Given the lack of practice ground in the early days of golf architecture in America, a lot of classic era designs had one or more "get you into the round" kind of holes with a lesser challenge.  

If you were presented with a small but outstanding parcel of land today, would you forgo a practice driving area in favor of the best 18 holes you could create?  Is it even possible to build a course today without a driving range but with a short game area given the market demands?  If so, would you alter the way you approach the first few holes or get on with it from the start?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 10:41:45 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2007, 11:47:30 AM »
Wayne,

I am routing two courses on limited land right now that almost force me to avoid a range.  I haven't considered how no range might affect early holes, but your theory makes general sense.  Even with a range, on public courses, so  many golfers rush up late that modern time constraints rather than no range argue just as strongly for an easy opener, at least in theory.

However, I am currently remodeling a course specifically to include a range, since the courses business consultant calculated how positively that would upgrade its image and play.  So, I hate to leave them out.  The most creative idea (and yet unworkable) was to combine the range with kids soccer fields to save development land.  The only problem was that both activities would compete for precious weekend time.

Tom,

Again, I don't give the Instant gratification/TV generation that we are much credit for slowly absorbing the quality of a course. I really do believe you have to get them at "hello." (i.e. the first hole and probably the second)

Being located in the heart of golf management territory and working for so many management companies has influenced my double start thinking, as has the fact that so many courses (with returning nines at least) get the suggestion to "flip the nines" at one point or another.  That is perhaps the strongest argument against returning nines, BTW.

Mr. Dedman and others have told me that double starts gain about 3500 total rounds per year, so about half the weekend golfers, and a quarter overall will be starting on ten on the typical "local" facility vs. destination resort.  

As you say, sometimes, it doesn't really matter where the hard holes are in the flow, it just matters that they vary enough to create flow.  That said, I figure those 10th hole start rounds are worth accounting for AND it doesn't seem that hard to work the easy/hard parts of course flow around those two points, at least in most cases.  

On the plans I am working on today, I designed one and ten as almost mirror images of each other, and on 1, substituted choclate drops for a sand bunker front right of the green.  On 10, I used a false side on the left as the hazard, so they are similar difficulty, but different.

After further review (getting ready for Super Bowl Sunday, I guess) I need to clarify that this is all general theory.  There are probably more courses where the holes are what they are but somewhere in the process I intuitively recognize that four holes in a row are too tough or easy and adjust one or more somehow in the name of balance.

Like you, I do review all routings (recalling that there is never ONE way to best route a course) and tweaking those as well to vary length of holes, nature of approach shots (distance, elevation diffs, etc.) before starting feature design. Somehow, in feature design, its always a difficult choice to do something that you don't like as much as your best idea simply in the name of variety or to tone something down - or up!  I have done pretty well focusing first on holes, and second on flow as far as features.  
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 11:56:46 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2007, 01:10:39 PM »
There is no question about it---none---that the most important hole to get right on any golf course is the 13th hole. There is no question about it and anyone who knows anything about golf course architecture knows how true that is!

Kirk Gill

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2007, 01:28:35 PM »
Forgive me if this is off-topic, but a local course starts with a long downhill par 4, fairly difficult, and then goes directly to a long (250 yd) par-3. Play always seems to back up there. This course does not have a range or practice area. At one point, the nines were switched, and what is now the back begins with a short par-3, driveable par 4, and drivable par-5. The first is a fairly stirring hole, visually (if not architecturally), and it allows you to start your round with a big drive downhill, gives you a nice view of the course to come, etc.

To what degree when routing and thinking of the flow of a course does the notion of "keeping the golfers moving" come into play? Can I assume that this would be more of a concern on a public course than a private one? I like standing on that first tee, but always have a heavy sigh when I finish the first and see two groups waiting to tee off on the second.

It seems to me that many courses have very interesting, sometimes difficult 17th holes, and then allow a bit of a breather hole on the 18th, perhaps to leave the player with a good taste in their mouth, or perhaps to let birdies decide a match on the last. Am I wrong?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2007, 01:58:01 PM »
Kirk,

Again, I will probably get bashed by "purists" on this site, but yes, I do consider pace of play, and par 3's, reachable par 4's and 5's and even short par 4's (too many players can still reach the green after a duff tee shot) are all bad for pace of play early in the round (or each nine if assuming double starts)

There is also the theory (which I endorse) that a birdie on 18 sells more beers afterward as a byproduct of finishing the round happy.  So, excitement might be more important for the finisher than difficulty.

I design more public courses than private ones, but generally, consideration of pace of play applies almost anywhere, IMHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Moore

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2007, 03:09:12 PM »
Dan:

I suspect that a lot of architects think the 18th hole is most important, and because of that you are often bored to death by the time you get there.

One hole doesn't make or break a course, so there is no one most important hole.

That said, one of the theories Mike Keiser has about the flow of a golf course is that if you can put a couple of highlight holes spaced properly through the round, you can get away with lesser holes on either side of them because people are too busy remembering the star attraction.  He came up with that theory when we played Portrush together back in 1995 ... and you can see its application at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, with the highlight holes coming at similar places in the round, and NOT at the end.

Personally, over the years I have come to believe that the starting 3-4 holes are more important than people (including Jeff) give them credit for ... if you haven't made me fall in love with the course by then, you're probably not going to get me.

Tom

Other than the first hole, Crystal Downs didn't start to grab me until the 5th but by the time we finished 8, well what can you say.  

At Portrush are you referring the the 5th and 14th being the signature type holes that are bookended on either side by 2-3 quite magnificent holes?    I'd say Portrush hooks you with the 3rd and 4th and then kicks it even a little higher with the 5th without a let down on 6,7 and 8.  Same on the back starting with 11, peaking at 14.  These crecendos then allow one to live with the more mundane holes 9-10 and 17-18.
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Mark Bourgeois

Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2007, 03:30:12 PM »
Jeff,

I would love to see more driveable par 4s as the opening hole. What would that do to pace of play?

There is no question about it---none---that the most important hole to get right on any golf course is the 13th hole. There is no question about it and anyone who knows anything about golf course architecture knows how true that is!
If not mistaken, this is the famed "14th principle" of Alister MacKenzie, the one he wrote on the back of the napkin that no one bothered to turn over.

Tom_Doak

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2007, 03:53:15 PM »
Mark B:  A lot of the courses in Melbourne start with a long par 3 or driveable par 4 -- Victoria, Yarra Yarra, Royal Melbourne East, and formerly Commonwealth all started that way.  They all have some angst about it, and Commonwealth tore up a great hole because having a 260 yard par 4 was a real pace of play problem.

TE Paul:  Pete Dye always used to say he had more good 13th holes than any other number, and your theory also explains the success of Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle, so maybe you're right on.

Wayne:  I'm notorious for not giving the practice range much weight in deciding on the ideal layout of things, unless the client specifically mentions it (and many do).  Ballyneal still doesn't have a range yet (they've got a lot of room they just aren't sure where to put it), Barnbougle may not either, Stonewall has two poor ones, and the remote facility at Pacific Dunes suited me just fine.  I just saw too many projects in my time with the Dyes where they designed and built a massive range that no one ever used.  And, yes, if the course has no range then I am probably more likely to design a fairly easy first hole, but it's still got to have character points.

George Pazin

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2007, 05:18:03 PM »
There is no question about it---none---that the most important hole to get right on any golf course is the 13th hole. There is no question about it and anyone who knows anything about golf course architecture knows how true that is!

Come on, everyone who knows anything about the game knows that the 13th can only be as good as the 12th, never better.

For another's view on the 13th:

Triskaidekaphobia by Noel Freeman

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sean_A

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2007, 05:19:51 PM »
Mark B:  A lot of the courses in Melbourne start with a long par 3 or driveable par 4 -- Victoria, Yarra Yarra, Royal Melbourne East, and formerly Commonwealth all started that way.  They all have some angst about it, and Commonwealth tore up a great hole because having a 260 yard par 4 was a real pace of play problem.

Tom

I was always curious about this thinking.  Seems to me that a short par 4 is an ideal start.  It automatically creates excellent spacing between groups if you allow the group on the green to clear before driving.  This is what we do at Droitwich and it works very well for promoting 3.5 (or less) hour games.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Bourgeois

Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2007, 05:36:08 PM »
Sean, that was my thinking, too.  Challenges to our thinking are:
1. When do you start the clock?  I think a driveable par 4 starts it when the group ahead walks off the green, but maybe not...
2. What if the distance is such that some tee off, but not others.  Then you've got some for whom the round started, and are now waiting, and the rest of the four-ball standing on the tee, also waiting.

Feels like a lot more perception than reality.  The reality seems to me that you force the group on the tee where they automatically are given a spacing they should feel the need to close.  Kinda like sending out the rabbit a little earlier than usual...

...and another thing: I read somewhere that an expert on pace of play believes that the most important thing courses can do to speed up play is force groups on 1 tee to hold off until the group in front of them has removed the flagstick on the green.  For this to happen, tee times need to be spaced wider than what's taken as "typical."

Sounds counterintuitive, but apparently the gain in pace of play offsets the loss from fewer tee times.

Architecturally speaking, then, wouldn't driveable par 4s create a structural spacing that is ideal?

Mark

Tom_Doak

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Re:What hole (1-18) is the most important to get right?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 07:55:35 PM »
Mark and Sean:

Put yourself in the client's shoes.  The driveable par 4 start will create ten-minute gaps between tee times, and that is the number which determines how many people will play your course each day.  

If I tell you it will reduce the time to play 18 holes so you can squeeze three or four more tee times at the end of the day, is that going to replace one or two tee times every hour through the day for you?  Aren't you just going to tell me to design the course differently so that you can get EVEN MORE people through?

I honestly don't know the answer to that, because in 20 years not a single client of mine has ever expressed an interest in the pace of play before we built a course for them!

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