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Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2007, 08:30:58 PM »
I felt Congressional (Blue), from my experience, failed to inspire me when I played (a lot in 2003 and 2004).  
I try to be even-handed in my criticism.  
My criticism of the course and the course alone is confined to the architecture, and in no way bears on the membership or management, in my opinion the best I have ever worked for in my prevous career.  In regard to the course, I felt, and continue to feel, it is wonderfully conditioned, and it is very, very difficult--the rough eats up golf balls, and it's long--but overall, a lot of the holes felt similar to me.  
A few inspired moments occur, for example, teeing off on #1 was and is cool, thinking about U.S. Opens; #14 is somewhat visually dramatic, with the elevated tee shot and subsequent uphill approach, bunkers cut into the hill, and of course, hitting a tee shot on 17 and then crossing the crest of the hill, from where you look down to the green and the clubhouse, large and imposing across the pond, but by and large, the holes don't feel distinctly different.  I felt Hole #18 was underwhelming, and I understand this is changing.  
I don't feel there is a lot of strategy to playing the course--hit a straight, high drive followed by a straight, high iron shot.  
On the positive side of the balance sheet, the par threes play with a different club each, depending on where the tees are set up.  I suppose hole numbers 6 and 10 bring a bit of strategy in, with it being a go/no go situation depending on the drive, but the use of water is similar on both holes, being right and behind the green.  
It was nice to play with a group of friends and coworkers, and we should all probably have such problems as not 'getting up' to play a US Open course every other week, but I felt it wasn't as inspiring as other US Open courses I am familiar with.  

PS-Bill Gayne's post crossed mine in cyberspace ;)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 08:31:28 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Bill Gayne

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2007, 08:40:54 PM »
Doug,

I concur with your thoughts as to criticism of Congressional being limited to the golf course. I've only been there three times and it's top notch club experience but the golf course is a grind.

Bill

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2007, 08:45:41 PM »
Tom H. I really did not mind the number of trees.  I like the terrain but the shots into the green just failed to satisfy and the rough was unmanageble. There were a few holes that I did love, especially 8 and 18.

I thought Congressional Blue was overrated for a long time.  The more I played it the more I have grown to like it.  It just took a while to appreciate it.  Maybe the same is true of Olympic.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Guy Phelan

Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2007, 08:48:07 PM »
Oakmont
Mid Ocean


Oakmont & Mid Ocean - Why?

Guy Phelan

Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2007, 08:49:07 PM »
I'll throw Congressional into the mix.


Agree

John Mayhugh

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2007, 08:59:31 PM »
Carnoustie.  It was quite a challenge, but not sure I would play there again.

Chris Cupit

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2007, 09:22:13 PM »
I would have to disagree completely on Muirfield

I said on the Great courses without great holes thread:

Somebody mentioned Pinehurst #2, it's great example. It's not a spectacular setting but it doesn't mean that they are not great holes even if they don't photographed well.

Same with Muirfield, a lot of great holes, no weaknesses in my opinion, but out of the blue most people won't Muirfield as possessing some of the best holes in the world.

I explain something to my friend about St Andrews and North Berwick. My perception was that the holes one by one are great at North Berwick, there are some more spectacular shots etc... but the game is better at St Andrews, how you have to think for 18 holes, how much detail needs to be understood, how the course flows from one hole to the other... it's really a course, a track  

For Muirfield, the same applies as there's not a lot of shots that you'll be dreaming of playing the next morning, but playing against that course, battling out shot for shot for 18 holes must be an awesome feeling.

To a certain extend, Muirfield look more fun in stroke play than in match play (especially if you compare it to North Berwick)

If I generalise a bit here, it seems that people are more impressed by the setting than the golf course in itself.
 
 


Philippe,

Believe me, I can appreciate that all of us have our favorites and there is not always a  "right answer" as to what makes a course inspiring or great.

Not that anyone may care,  but I was going to give my hole by hole of Muirfield and why I found it dull and boring.  I did play 4 rounds there last summer in great weather (maybe that was the problem!) and have played a lot of oversees golf.  Two of my rounds were practice rounds and two were competitive.

Also, I'd be curious as to which holes you think are great at Muirfield?  #9, #13, #17, #18?

Here it goes:
Scale is:  "Blah"  "Hmmm"  and "Wow" ;D
#1  Tough tee shot.  Tee seems like you are out in a pasture, which, I guess you are.  Left fairway bunker is tough--can lead to unplaybale lies given its shape/form.  Ground is flat from tee to green.  "Blah"
#2  More interesting rolling ground and a neat fall off on the left of the fairway.  Green is pretty bland for a drive and pitch hole.  I give it a "Blah"
#3  Drive to a flat fairway.  Second shot is short and I guess the mounds on either side before the green make the drive more interesting so you don't have a blindish shot.  Large green with interesting stuff on the left if I remember correctly.  I'll give it a "Hmmm".
#4  A good hole with a dramatic fall off to the right.  This may be the wrong way to look at it but after playing the first three par 3s--4,7 and 13 I got tired of a 195 yard 4 or 5 iron to an all of nothing green.  No chance to run the ball up (thank god there was no wind for the week) or do anything other than hit and hope.  The tees had been lengthened and all 4 par 3s were right in the same distance.  Judged alone this par 3 is interesting but overall the 3s were too much of the same stuff.  "Hmmm" for the hole alone but "Blah" for the sameness of the par 3s as a group.
#5  Booooring.  Long, straight, uphill.  No advantage to hitting any side of the fairway on the drive.  Second shot was only important to lay up along the right side if the hole was left behind the bunker.  Otherwise.....Pretty view of the water on the left--they should build a course between the current one and the water ;)  "Blah"
#6  One of my favorites--I liked the sweeping downhill left dogleg.  Inside bunkers were great, stone wall interesting and the green was a tough target.  Bad drive hit to the right could stay up on the hill and leave a wood into the green and a good drive could get you in 6 or 7 iron distance.  "Wow"
#7  Par 3 195, 4 or 5 iron with death on the left.  Severe back to front green.  No chance to play a run up shot-hit and hope.  See hole #4.
#8  Nice dogleg right with a million bunkers on the right.  Actually, the fairway was so narrow at the bend it took driver out of your hand.  Everyone I played with hit 2 iron to 3w left of the bunkers where the fairway was very wide.  Had the fairway bulged just a little, drivers would have a chance of not running through the fairway.  As it was, no strategy--layup left and the green was wide and big so just hit the next one over the cross bunkers.  "Hmmmm" but could be a "Wow" if fairway was fatter at the corner.
#9  Neat par 5.  Wall is nice, left bunkers keep drives down the right but it seemed like a pretty nothing hole.  The layup was easy and even without challenging the fairway bunkers you'd be right up near the green in two.  I thought the wall would be much closer to the green and much more intimidating on the layup.  "Hmmm"
#10  Tee shot is like hitting on a driving range.  Second shot has interest and the green set in the hill was cool.  Still, nothing to inspire me.  "Blah" tee shot, "Hmmm" second shot and green
#11  Loved this hole!  Great tee shot--blind up and over the hill.  Green was interesting and bunkered very well.  I loved this hole.  "Wow"
#12  Downhill nothing tee shot--irons mostly.  Nice large green--wind seemed to be from the left and behind and with the green pitched toward you, you had to make sure and keep the ball beneath the hole.  Tee shot a zero but a good second shot.  "Blah" tee shot, "Hmmm" green
#13  Par 3--guess what--195 yard 4 or 5 iron AGAIN.  No chance again to run up a shot.  This hole was lengthened from a 165 yards or so and I think it's just too damned hard.  One hop left of the green and your ball was lost--it's uphill and blind so you can't see where your ball hits.  If they had left this as a 6-8 iron shot on a calm day, I think it would have been better.  Treacherous green and left bunker.  Neat back hole location but with a three or four iron in your hand, you are just trying to hit it anywhere you can find it again.  Actually a "Wow" if I could have moved up 25 yards.  Too much of the same during the tournament so a "Hmmm"
#14  Long, slightly downhill to a flat fairway and green.  "Blah"
#15  Long dogleg right to a flattish fairway and green.  "Blah"
#16  Par 3 195 yard 4 or 5 iron.  BUT you could hit a variety of shots and the tiered green was very interesting.  Maybe the weakest par 3 but at least it gave you a choice as to how to play the hole.  "Hmmm"
#17  Famous par 5.  I couldn't believe that the famous inside bunkers were impossible to see from the tee.  Absolutely plain, bland tee shot.  Actually it doesn't bother me and I often like it when a hole appears wide open with no "defined" target--messes with the good players who are always looking for a spot to aim at.  Anyway, I just thought they would be some huge intimidating bunkers and while they were deep and dictated play of the hole, they weren't intimidating.  Second shot was more "inspiring".  Huge cross bunkers and mounds and a narrow entrance to the green were very cool.  Mounding around the green was bigger than I thought it would be.  Even though I wanted more from the tee shot, this is a great hole.  "Hmmm" tee shot and "Wow" the rest of the way in
#18  Straight and flat again.  Green was much smaller and much more severe than many on the course.  Right greenside horseshoe bunker also seemed "small" and much more shallow  than I expected.  "Blah"  Not a bad hole, just nothing great.  (I actually got chills at #18 TOC but here I couldn't wait to be done.)

Again, I am not saying anyone is wrong (although I am prepared for those that will say I'm an idiot) I just was underwhelmed.  It was a tough course but for a tough course that is going to beat me up everyday, give me RCD anytime over Muirfield.

Eric_Terhorst

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2007, 09:39:08 PM »
Chris, we certainly can't fault you for not telling us Why? about Muirfield--good memory!

I haven't played Muirfield, but I'm surprised that it shows up in this thread because of its reputation.  Jack Nicklaus is a great admirer of Muirfield, isn't he, emulating it in some ways for Muirfield Village?  Isn't the routing considered to be masterful?

Since Jack is not the only expert we rely on, what about Doak?  Can someone who owns the Confidential Guide tell us where Muirfield is on the Doak scale?

« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 09:39:56 PM by Eric Terhorst »

Chris Cupit

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2007, 09:50:25 PM »
Eric,

I agree that the routing of Muirfield is universally praised.  The outward nine is a clockwise big loop and the inward nine is a counter clockwise loop within the outer loop.  I absolutely agree that this was a tremendous feature/innovation of Muirfields--but when I played the course, the loops didn't inspire me!

I've also played Muirfield Village in Ohio.  I really enjoyed it--it was in the '86 Jr. Am. and it was the first time I ever saw greens walk mowed and fairways cut with triplex mowers.  I always thought triplexes were for greens!

Anyway, I think Jack named his course in honor of Muirfield but I don't know why.  I believe The Open in 1966 completed the professional grand slam for Jack and that may have been his motivation.

If I remember correctly, Nicklaus won that week at Muirfiled and either never hit a driver during the championship or hit 1 driver!  Is that really the sign of a great course?  Certainly the greatest player won that week (much like Tiger's win this year eschewing his driver) but wouldn't the ideal test have the greatest players able to hit at least 1 driver a day?
Or at least tempt the greats into thinking that Driver is the play?



Eric_Terhorst

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2007, 10:22:07 PM »
Chris,

The "Champion Golfer of the World" is the one who shoots the lowest score, yes?  The guy holding the Jug is the one who has just shown us how best to play the course and beat all the other guys this week.  Whether it took every club in the bag or 280 5-irons is immaterial to me, and, IMHO, not a measure of the greatness of the course.  It's only a measure of what he had to do to win.  

Maybe if Tiger played with one club some other guys might have a chance to beat him :D

But we're digressing from this thread...

Chris Cupit

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2007, 11:43:06 PM »
Eric,

I think I was saying that both Nicklaus and Woods were the Champions and deservedly so.  The stroke play game has always been about the score and while I wasn't alive for Nicklaus in '66 I think Woods performance last year was artistic and near perfection.

However, I think a fair judgement of any course is the degree to which all facets of the game are tested.  Nicklaus and Woods were so awesome that they didn't need drivers and smart enough to realize that fact.  

I also understand that the tee shot can be played with whatever club one wants.  I would think, though, that most any architect would like to think that over 72 holes, the "Champion Golfer of the Year" would be tempted to hit a few drivers--that's all I was saying.

And, I think that a course that can get the best to hit every club in their bag would be better than one that they could get around with without considering using all their "ammo".  In this case, I would contend that TOC is a better examination than most as it allows/tempts the best to hit some drivers even though Tiger could easily play it without ever having to disturb "Frank".

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2007, 08:02:22 AM »
I'll nominate Torrey Pines South.

Granted, I haven't seen it after Rees' changes, but I wasn't inspired back when I played it.  Maybe it was its lackluster 18th, but when I was done, I remember thinking, "is that all there is?"

Philippe Binette

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2007, 11:22:13 AM »
The thing with Muirfield is that I think it must be really inspiring for top players (handicap 3 or less) because it ask so much one every shot, but to a 20 handicap, North Berwick could be more inspring and fun.

Philippe Binette

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2007, 11:32:39 AM »
Chris,

I said that Muirfield is great because of the round, it is hard to decompose in piece...

Most of the time you said the shot to a flat fairway, there's always 3% - 4% side slope that requires the best players to shape the shots if they want to go for extra length. That's probably why Nicklaus played short of the tee to find the fairways and survived for 72 holes that way, avoiding major mistakes.

Let's put it this way, it's subtle not flashy

rjsimper

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2007, 11:44:51 AM »
Congressional I can see, though I personally enjoyed the course very much.  I think it is a lot of big, solid, difficult, not overly strategic golf...but the finish is excellent, and I thought the 17-old 18 combo was both appropriate and quite good.  I'd take holes like 17 all day long.

Chris Cupit

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2007, 04:09:28 PM »
Guys,

I just want to clarify one thing about Muirfield.  The nominations were for the BEST courses that failed/fails to inspire.  

Of course in my critique I am nitpicking because I first had to think of one of the BEST courses.  Muirfield is certainly a great course, one of the top in the world.  All I am saying is that having played lots of other greats and having particularly played a fair amount in the UK and Ireland, I wasn't "inspired" by Muirfield.

I in no way was trying to suggest it shouldn't be considered one of the best in the world; although, I am personally "inspired" more by quirky and unusual than tough and fair.  Some people like chocolate, others vanilla.

If it inspired me I'd want to go play it as much as possible and while I am glad I played it, had lots of fun and will cherish the memories and history of the place, I've "been there, done that" and don't feel the need or inspiration to go back.

But yes, architecturally speaking, particularly given its early contribution to unique routing, Muirfield is great.

Guy Phelan

Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2007, 08:41:53 PM »
Chris,

I understand what you are communicating. However, the only moment that comes to my mind when I think back to the last time I was at Muirfield, I had checked into my room at Greywalls, it was late in the day and the Sun was just right for the long shadows to stretch out across #10. I stared, took photographs and smiled that I was going to play one of my favorites in the morning!

vanilla/chocolate

Guy

SWolffe

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Re:Nominations for best course that fails to inspire
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2007, 09:31:06 PM »
Going back to the first post or dig on Baltusrol.  I am biased, but the Lower with very its strong finishing holes of the par 3 16th, one of the best par 5's in golf - the 17th and a solid but very easy birdie, par 5 18th, with that majestic backdrop of the clubhouse.  Is in my book, inspiring and not failing to inspire.  But, I agree if my last round were to be between the Upper or the Lower, I would have to choose the Upper.  Then again, I would have a tough time in passing up the East at BCC.  

Cheers,
Stuart