Template for the 10th at Riviera?

[Michael Robin]

Tim -

The alternate green is just used for relief for member play, it is not for tournament play. Given the small square footage on the main green it is rested sometimes as many as 2-3 days a week during high stress times.

A hole that reminds me of 10 at Riv is the 16th at Pacific Dunes. The green sits at a similar angle to the tee, with the smart play up the left side, with a very difficult approach from the right side, with an option to take a swing at the green in the right wind. Tom's green is much
scarier to hold given the firm and fast, but the angles from the fairway are very similar and with the same club.

[Jeff Doerr]

Michael,

I love #16!



The slope of the fairway and the penal nature of the gorse on the hill give this a very different feel than what I see at Riv10, but I see the strategy you speak of.

Riv 10 is so unique because it does not need great topography.

[Michael Robin]

Jeff, great photo that really captures the angles I referred to. And I agree,
16 is a great hole! It's controversial, but not for me. I think it's one of the great holes in the game and I love how late in the round it comes, 'cause anything can happen on that hole and the tide can completely swing in a match. I love when short holes can have that kind of dramatic impact, and Riv 10 & Pac 16 are certainly leaders in that category.

[TEPaul]

"The design concept which most jumps out at me is Macdonald's cape hole, or at least his cape green.  Ironically, Macdonald's cape green principle is seen on great courses everywhere (Ex. Merion 10,) yet rarely is he given credit for coming up with the concept."

David Moriarty:

Where do you come up with this stuff? Merion's present #10 is in no way designed off Macdonald's cape hole. If it is based on any concept which it may not be it is the 12th hole at Pine Valley. Before you make these kinds of remarks maybe you should just take a look at Pine Valley's #12 first.

At this point I doubt anyone has a problem with you saying you personally feel there may be some connection but please try not to pass off those remarks as if they are even remotely true because to be honest you obviously don't know enough about other potential prototypes to know the difference.

It seems as if you've gotten this bee in your bonnet recently that for some reason C.B Macdonald has not been given proper credit for his influence on American architecture. I would doubt that's the case----eg he isn't referred to as the "Father of American golf architecture" for nothing, you know?

But I doubt his hole concepts and templates need to be applied to golf holes in this country to which they clearly do not apply. But to understand why that's the case it appears you need to become a whole lot more familiar with many of the holes in this country that probably did influence other holes.

Often architect's actually explained in print which holes influenced other holes they did. For instance I just found out that the really wonderful 6th green at The Creek was influenced by the old 15th green at Mountain Lake and that Raynor felt the 10th at The Creek was influenced by NGLA's #17. I really can't see that much of a connection in concept on the latter but nevertheless that's what Raynor said and he certainly was involved in both.

[wsmorrison]

A picture is worth 1000 words.  This post should save a lot of words...but probably won't.  

These are Flynn designs inspired by the 12th at Pine Valley (which it seems he built under the guidance of Hugh and Alan Wilson).  Flynn was a member of Pine Valley and Toomey was on the Executive Board.  A number of these holes were designed and/or built before the 10th was redesigned at Merion East.  The first drawing is quit a bit longer than the 12th but the concepts are there.  All the other drawings are conceptual remakes of the short par 4 12th at PVGC.

Tom Paul is certainly correct.  A broader perspective is needed before pedigrees are asserted.  This lack of understanding has become a recognizable pattern on recent threads and results in numerous spurious claims.

Flynn used topography, sandy waste areas, streams, water and other means to break up landing areas directly along the line of play between the tee and the green.  The correct angle of play is along the outside of the dogleg.

Pine Valley #12 in 1940



Other designs inspired by the 12th at Pine Valley:

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[Jeff Doerr]

This may be a repeat of a previous thread that I could not find, but pardon my newbie memory if it is.

While looking through Dan Moore's aerial shots I was struck by this one at Acacia.



Does this predate #10 at Riviera?



Is there a template for this style that I've not seen before?

The article in LINKS was great on 10, but it also indicated that it was first built without greenside bunkers.

Thanks Wayne for the Flynn insight!

What I'm struck with by the two holes I posted is the fairway setup. In the Acacia hole, like Riv10, the fairway begs you to go straight at the green. The best play at Riv10 is to go left for the better angle. If the Acacia hole had a strong front to back slope and left play would also be much preferred. That is maybe why he built so much fairway to the left.

Wayne's sharing of Flynn's work that followed 12 at PV asks the player to go to the outside of the dogleg, but the hazards seem to direct the player that way. Riv10 seems to seduce/temp the player more into the incorrect landing zone.

Are there more examples of this in Scotland/Ireland, etc.?

[Dan Moore]

After looking last night at more info on Macdonald's Sahara I can see why some didn't see a connection between it and Riviera's 10th.  That's because there really isn't any other than both being short driveable par 4's.  And in fact it looks like neither Macdonald or Raynor reused that particular concept of a totally blind approach to a driveable green.  

As to the question as to whther Langford used Shara as a template, that I feel is more likely and is still an open question one which needs needs more substantiation than mere surface similarity.  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Your post #30 with all those drawings is an excellent one and clearly makes the point of a probable connection between PV's #12th (which Flynn may've even finished off some after Crump's death) and Merion's 10th.

But even if this is all very commonsensical and logical and historically supportable don't you think you are totally minimizing and discounting Charles Blair Macdonald anyway?

I mean, honestly, shouldn't all American holes and courses pay total homage to him and his template concepts as David Moriarty seems intent on maintaining and arguing endlessly?

If it wasn't for C.B. do you really even think we would have golf in America at all? Do you really think any of those Golden Age architects could've had a single intelligent thought on architecture on their own without first being first significantly and extensively advised by Macdonald?

[wsmorrison]

Wayne:

Your post #30 with all those drawings is an excellent one and clearly makes the point of a probable connection between PV's #12th (which Flynn may've even finished off some after Crump's death) and Merion's 10th.

But even if this is all very commonsensical and logical and historically supportable don't you think you are totally minimizing and discounting Charles Blair Macdonald anyway?

I mean, honestly, shouldn't all American holes and courses pay total homage to him and his template concepts as David Moriarty seems intent on maintaining and arguing endlessly?

If it wasn't for C.B. do you really even think we would have golf in America at all? Do you really think any of those Golden Age architects could've had a single intelligent thought on architecture on their own without first being first significantly and extensively advised by Macdonald?

Of course you are right, Tom.  How could I be so stupid?  

I'm sure D Mo will supply us with train manifests proving to us that Macdonald and Whigham visited Cherry Hills, Denver CC, Glen View, Lancaster as at Merion to make sure his Cape Hole concept was incorporated into those courses.  And after these, he will go on to show us how the other 12 courses had to have CBM model their holes after his at NGLA.  There's no way Flynn could have done anything without Macdonald, especially if Fownes, Wilson, Crump and everyone else needed his assistance in laying out their courses.  How could they ever hope to do so without the great man himself?

Forget the minor detail that the concept is not Macdonald's but was designed years before at Sandwich.  Moriarty would remind us that only C Mac could discern the true principles of the hole and recreate them elsewhere.  There is no such thing as a golf architecture thought independent of C Mac.  

[Jeff Doerr]

Wayne,

Is this the hole you were speaking of?



In this image I really see one main route because of the narrow fairway. If the tee box was farther right (near the OB / 56 indicator) and there was fairway right of the bunkers, then it would have a lot of the features of Riv10.

Is Riv10 really a unique hole in golfdom?

[wsmorrison]

David Moriarty,

How can you possibly interpret that I was implying that Flynn invented the dogleg?  Please show me where I claimed Flynn invented the dogleg--if you can.  You present another in a long line of misunderstandings and bias that you originate.  If you weren't so arrogant and condescending, you would realize quite easily that I said that Flynn's holes, of the type I pictured above, were inspired by the 12th at Pine Valley.  

Flynn was aware of the 12th hole at PVGC from its very beginning (he was a member and may have constructed it) and the concepts on that hole are much more like the concepts of the current 10th at Merion than the Cape Hall at NGLA was at the time the hole was created.  The hole was changed to its present form in 1924 or 1925--after the 10th at Merion East was changed.  The 10th at Merion is somewhat reminscent of the 12th at Sandwich although the original short par 3 3rd (redesigned) was apparently the inspiration for Macdonald's Sahara 2nd hole, which it also has some similarities too.  Now I guess you'll claim the inspiration was Macdonald's 2nd at NGLA (originally 262 yards and now 330) and no longer the Cape.

I am sure you don't like my derision and I should refrain from it.  I should not have been so mean spirited.  This is why I removed my offending remarks before you posted them.  It is so frustrating to read your awful conclusions and think that some out there could believe such nonsense.  Maybe I shouldn't care about your ideas at all; many of them don't merit much consideration in any case.

You repeatedly make substantial claims without support and expect us all to stay silent and accept them?  Why, because you know better than anyone else?  That has proved to be utter nonsense.

How can you possibly look at Merion's present 10th hole and claim that Macdonald's Cape Hole had to be the model for that as well?  You would have us believe that the initial and subsequent versions of the course have, beyond any doubt, Macdonald design influences on the ground?  I hope the site regards your conclusions for what they are.  Premature and without a deep and broad perspective driven by an agenda.  

Think about this possibility.  Those of us that discount your theories are not doing so because we live here and protect our myths and legends.  We take offense to your shabby research and spurious conclusions.  If you take a close look at your posts, you will notice that you repeat the same things over and over and over.  They are not true because they are repeated.  

You compartmentalize holes into categories and see attributions.  This is a part of your flawed analysis.  The Cape Hole was a green that sat in a cape in a creek and had various angles of play on the tee shot depending upon skill and risk taken.  The 10th at Merion, the earlier 12th at Pine Valley and the other Flynn holes that I posted (with the possible exception of Indian Creek) share concepts more closer to the Sahara than the Cape.  As you may be aware, the Sahara is a concept Macdonald employed at NGLA but it was not one of his original hole concepts but rather taken from the original at Sandwich.  It was also one that was different in that it was only 228-262 yards long in the beginning and 330 yards today.  Do you wish to bypass the original design in attributing influence on the 10th at Merion and the others so that your Macdonald claim still stands albeit on shaky ground?  

Was the 12th at Pine Valley, the current 10th at Merion when built, and the other holes meant to be played with various angles  off the tee depending upon the risk the player was willing to take?  Or were they originally designed to be played along the outside of the dogleg for the ideal angle into the greens?  The pedigree of these holes is not a Cape but closer to a hole at Sandwich which influenced Macdonald's design at NGLA.

I await your reply showing me how wrong I am.

[TEPaul]

Hey, David, regarding your post #36, please let's not get into this whole issue of uncivility again. I don't want to do that, I know Wayne doesn't either. Do you?

The point is, my friend, you are just wrong about what you say about Merion's #10. Is it so impossible for you to understand that and admit i?, Are you completely incapable of learning anything on here?

We're not being uncivil towards you at all, we are merely pointing out that you are wrong about Merion's #10.

If you had ever seen PV's #12 I'm pretty certain you'd understand what we are trying to tell you. If you had any inkling of the architectural evolution and interconnection of some of the courses and holes and architects in this area (their remarkably close connection for the simple reason they were friends and even worked on one another's courses to some extent--eg The Wilsons and Flynn at PV) I'm pretty certain you'd understand what we are telling you.

Why is it that you just continue to disagree with and argue with everything people say on here if they don't agree with everything you say, no matter how far-fetched or uninformed it may be? Again, aren't you interested in learning anything?

Why is it that every thread you're involved in turns into an incessant argument with everyone who participates on it?

[TEPaul]

David:

If you would like to know the entire evolution (the entire evolution) of what is the 12th hole at Pine Valley, I would be more than happy to tell you and discuss it with you.

You've never seen the hole or the course and I've studied both pretty intensely for ten years now.

Do you want to know it's evolution, all its playing characteristics and how it is in so many ways, but not all, similar to Merion's #10, or don't you?

Would you like to learn something about it and compare and contrast it to Merion's 10th or do you just want to continue to argue with us and wail about uncivility again?

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I think your post #37 (and the drawings you posted) is a very fine one, and the kind this website should have many more of. And it surely is worth some informed and intelligent discussion. Let's hope that can happen.

The fact that I'm not (and I don't know that you are) exactly aware that anyone directly attributed PVGC's #12 to the creation and design of Merion's #10 in writing should also be part of the discussion no matter how similar those two holes are in so many ways (but not in every way).

The fact that I'm not aware (and I'm sure you're not either, or anyone else for that matter) that anyone attributed Macdonald's Cape hole to the creation and design of Merion's #10 should be part of the discussion too.

I do not see a single thing in your post #37 that is uncivil towards Moriarty and I doubt anyone else would either.

What I see in your post is some real frustration with some of the far-fetched things he says and on here and then when challenged just proceeds to distort what others have said (again) in some mindbending effort to apparently continue to argue with everyone endlessly.

I feel you pain, pal.  

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

I don't know what the original 3rd hole at Sandwich looked like but as a short blind par 3 with a sandy waste area, the only principle of the original 3rd that seemingly appears on the 2nd at NGLA is the waste area.   Of course, I may be missing something since George has studied this stuff a lot more than I have.  I think the 12th at Sandwich is reminiscent of the concepts found at the 12th at Pine Valley and later variations on the concept such as those by Flynn.

There are archetypes in golf.  To ascribe the use of these as evidence of the influence of one man seems rather absurd.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Originally, I was rather harsh with him on reply #34.  I'm sorry I fell into the darkness.  But his repetitions, faulty claims and assumptions presented as fact are trying.  I apologize for saying he ought to have a statue made of himself slightly higher than and placed next to the one of CBM at NGLA.  That was mean and uncalled for.  I like it, but it is still uncalled for.  I removed it before he replied, but Moriarty was kind enough to reprint it anyway.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

"Originally, I was rather harsh with him on reply #34.  I'm sorry I fell into the darkness.  But his repetitions, faulty claims and assumptions presented as fact are trying.  I apologize for saying he ought to have a statue made of himself slightly higher than and placed next to the one of CBM at NGLA.  That was mean and uncalled for.  I like it, but it is still uncalled for.  I removed it before he replied, but Moriarty was kind enough to reprint it anyway."

Wayne:

You see, that's the fundamental difference between our styles on here. You think the statue thing is mean and uncalled for and worthy of removal but I think it's nothing more than humorous, perhaps vaguely biting humor but humor nonetheless.

The fact is the humor level on here is not very good and it never has been and some on here have almost zero humor or appreciation of humor and that never helps. Combine that with a paper-thin skin and it helps less.

But telling Moriarty he's arrogant and condescending is right and proper simply because it is undeniably true and telling him he should have a statue higher than Macdonald's is just funny.

If you called Charley Macdonald arrogant and condescending and in need of a statue higher than Moriarty's or anyone else's there is no doubt in my mind---none---that Charley would just eat that up with a great big spoon. I'm sure he would find such a statement the epitome of the type of compliment he really looked for.

Furthermore, perhaps we have even found the key to why Moriarty seems so fixated on Macdonald that he is now incessantly trying to propose that Macdonald should receive more credit for everything that happened in American architecture. It may be that Moriarty is every bit as arrogant and condescending as Charley was.

However, the massive difference I see between Macdonald and Moriarty is if someone challenges or insults Moriarty he starts wailing that everyone is confused and misunderstands him and that everyone is wrong for that reason, while Charley would probably just violently insult them and then proceed to deck them and think about it some other time.  

Just keep pounding away at Moriarty's far-fetched statements and claims, in a tough but civil way, of course.  That's what GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is all about. That's what makes it unique and valuable.

We all have a responsibility to the ultimate understanding of golf architecture to counterpoint some of the crap Moriarty comes up with on here. The fact that someone might actually believe him either now or in the future is a fairly sobering thought!  

[Jeff Doerr]

Wayne,

Again, I was struck by the similarities betweeen the Langford work and Thomas at Riv10. Just wondering if one of them might have been thinking of the other hole or some previous hole that was a multi-route short par 4. We can't know much about Acacia, but we can see the greatness of Riv10 with a green that is better approached from the less obvious route.

I figured I'd pose the question to the board, as the knowledge here of the old courses and history is strong.

[JESII]

This is a good way to scare everyone off of this thread as well...this would not be as insulting on one of the threads you guys start, but on someone else's it's embarrassing...ignore each other if you have to, but cool it!

[wsmorrison]

Should I ignore his ridiculous assertions too?  He made the connection to the 10th at Merion and I addressed that.  Or would you rather his assertions stand alone?

[Jeff Doerr]

Gentlemen,

I truly did not want to start another Merion thread.

As I said earlier...

"Again, I was struck by the similarities betweeen the Langford work and Thomas at Riv10. Just wondering if one of them might have been thinking of the other hole or some previous hole that was a multi-route short par 4. We can't know much about Acacia, but we can see the greatness of Riv10 with a green that is better approached from the less obvious route.

I figured I'd pose the question to the board, as the knowledge here of the old courses and history is strong."

Saying Riv10 is a multi-route sahara with a cape green might be descriptive for this bunch, but not quite what I was seeking.

Thanks for any additional input, Jeff

[wsmorrison]

Jeff,

I am sorry to have diverted your excellent thread.  I hope the drawings I posted are of some use.  I won't waylay your search any more.

Sincerely,
Wayne

[TEPaul]

Ooops, sorry Jeff. You're absolutely right, back to Riviera's #10, perhaps in my top three favorite holes in history.

[Sébastien Dhaussy]

I'm very surprised that #10 at Riviera isn't replicated more often in the modern day.  It would be a cinch to copy, seeing how it looks like a rare great hole on which terrain matters very little (I undderstand it's essentially a flat hole).

From the GCA Feature Interview of Geoff Shackelford , September 1999 :

“I am just amazed how rarely modern architects try to build take-off's or even near replicas of the tenth at Riviera. Nicklaus claims the first hole at Sherwood is very similar to ten at Riviera in playing style, which is a complete joke. One very prominent design firm called me asking for Thomas' 'as builts' of the tenth and I explained we really didn't have that kind of thing just lying around, nor did Thomas do such plans back in the twenties. The architect in question was surprised, and mumbled something as if all old architects were unprofessional hacks because they didn't sit in an office and churn out pretty blueprints! But I then explained that it was nice to hear someone was trying to mimic the playing qualities of the tenth. However, the design associate in question said they likely would not build a replica because their short hole was meant for a public course and the well-bunkered Thomas green would be too tough for such a thing. And best of all, he said, they weren't 'about copying old holes' anyway. So I suggested doing a version of the hole as Thomas had it in 1927 (prior to the 1929 addition of greenside bunkers). The green was slightly crowned and still called for an approach from the left side for the best angle. But the architect never understood how the bunkerless, crowned green would work for his public course in keeping play reasonably fast and not beating people up too much. Thankfully, Coore and Crenshaw have built such a green, with a much more severe 'crown' than ten at Riviera had prior to the bunkering. Their version is the fifth at Cuscowilla in Georgia, which is another great short par-4.”

Geoff Shackelford is too rare on this site      

Wayne,
Thanks for the drawings. Very interesting and great learning.  

[RJ_Daley]

Nice quote and reference Sebastien. (I don't know how to type that accent over the e)  

Yes, I see Geoff's comment on the strategy of the 5th at Cusco in terms of having a wide left play crossing a sahara bunker of sorts, or a short right side FW, and carry over the grassy hump onto the more narrow crowned green.  But, I really don't see it as having followed a 10th at Riviera template.  I think we have to define what degree of imitation suggests a 'template' as opposed to a conceptual strategy sort of approach.  

I like the thought above that 10 at Riviera uses a bit of Sahara crossing of sand bunker concept and multi directional set of choices to play into a FW, and diverse approaches to a cape green.  I think David has the green defined as a cape quite right.  It is just caped or pennisula flaired out on an opposite direction from left to right, rather than the traditional right to left.