Template for the 10th at Riviera?

[Jeff Doerr]

This may be a repeat of a previous thread that I could not find, but pardon my newbie memory if it is.

While looking through Dan Moore's aerial shots I was struck by this one at Acacia.



Does this predate #10 at Riviera?



Is there a template for this style that I've not seen before?

The article in LINKS was great on 10, but it also indicated that it was first built without greenside bunkers.

[TEPaul]

Anybody know who built that alternate green on Riviera's 10th?

This is not a question---I know the answer. It's a contest and the first one to get the right answer I will treat to a weekend at Augusta.

[Jon Spaulding]

Anybody know who built that alternate green on Riviera's 10th?

This is not a question---I know the answer. It's a contest and the first one to get the right answer I will treat to a weekend at Augusta.

Is the alt green a TEPaul original? Just hoping brown-nosing might get me the trip!

[Adam Clayman]

Dan Proctor

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Ron Forse designed the green. I don't know who actually built it though.

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, Now you do. It was Dan. I would've thought it was for Bill and Ben, though.

[Garland Bayley]

I don't see any way the hole at Acacia can be seen as a template for #10 at Riviera.
From what can be seen, it looks like the hole at Acacia is simply a bad hole. However, it is well known that the tenth at Riviera is a great hole.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Ron Forse designed the green. I don't know who actually built it though."

You win Jeff. Now where would you like me to take you in Augusta? To MacDonald's or to Colonel Sanders Fried Chicken? I'm not sure we could make a weekend of it but I promise you can have all you can eat on me.

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, as a "newbie", I think your observation that it might be a template, is quite impressive.  I'd suggest that it might be an "inspiration" concept, but not a template.  

Likewise, the 15th at Dan and Dave's Wild Horse is "inspired" by 10 at Riviera, it is not a template, per se.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I don't eat at McDonald's very often, Tom. So let's go for a Big Mac!

[Dan Moore]

The template based on the original on the east coast of England.  I think it would have to be Macdonald's.  

[Garland Bayley]

You lost me Dan.
 

[RJ_Daley]

Me too...  

[Dan Moore]

Is that because the hole I posted is reversed, a mirror image, with the cross bunker on the left instead of the right?  Or are we just seeing things differently?  

All are relatively short, driveable par 4's with a cross bunker to negotiate off the tee and a bail out area to the left (or right).  They all look like variations of Macdonald's Sahara template hole to me which was based on the famous Sahara hole at Royal St George's.

Obviously Rivieria's 10th doesn't quite fit the mold because it is fairly flat and the cross bunker does not create blindness off the tee and the green is completely different than the others and it has the additional fairway bunker on the far left guarding the opening down the length of the green which is what distinguishes the 10th as the great hole it is.   To me its a more sophisticated version of the same concept.  

Langford used the Sahara concept on several occasions sometimes as a driveable par 4 and sometimes as a long par 3.  

[Garland Bayley]

Dan,

Just didn't see it as a template for Riviera. The Redan may be the most famous template. The copies all try to get the approach close to the same. Riviera is famous for easy approach from the long side, hard approach from the short side. Acacia certainly didn't have that, and it appears Sahara doesn't. I can see that Riviera would be a refinement of the Sahara concept. Also, the Sahara shown does not seem to invite the shot across the "desert" like Riviera does.

[Dan Moore]

Riviera is famous for easy approach from the long side, hard approach from the short side. Acacia certainly didn't have that, and it appears Sahara doesn't. I can see that Riviera would be a refinement of the Sahara concept. Also, the Sahara shown does not seem to invite the shot across the "desert" like Riviera does.

Good point.  Maybe we are hung up on template being used as something that is faithfully copied rather than providing the basic concept or inspiration as Dick says.  

I think they were all were driveable on the direct line to the green across the "desert."  

I'm curious as to why you think Acacia was a bad hole.  Let's assume the cross bunkers created blindness for the green and/or landing area on the direct line over the bunkers and that it at least had a very good Langford elevated green that complemented the terrain and length of hole (like most Langford greens).

[Garland Bayley]

Dan,

First understand that I have not played these holes, so my understanding comes only from the pictures, except for Riviera about which much has been written.

As for Acacia, the line of instinct is also the line of charm for the hitter who can carry the bunker. For the golfer that can not carry the bunker, there is no line of charm, as the route around it on the left to give a bad angle of approach is not charming in the least. Alister would not approve!
 

[Dan Moore]

For the golfer that can not carry the bunker, there is no line of charm, as the route around it on the left to give a bad angle of approach is not charming in the least. Alister would not approve!
 

I haven't played them either, but at least we've seen a lot of photos of NGLA and Rivieria.  Sadly, we will never be able to play Acacia, but could buy nice house where the green used to be.  

Couldn't the short hitter lay-up short of the bunker or even with the bunker on the left still giving a clear second shot to the green.  The hole is less than 300 yds long though I'll have to check Lost Links again tonight to make sure, so a lay-up second wouldn't have been too terrible.  

[Ian Andrew]

Dan,

Ive played them both and they're nothing alike. I simply don't get your suggestion on this one.

[Dan Moore]

Ian,

Jeff made the initial connection between the hole at Acacia and Rivieria based solely on the overhead aerial view.  Viewed solely from that perspective I can see how Jeff made the connection.  I think they "look" similar when viewed from above in that they are all driveable par 4's with direct lines to the green that require a carry of cross bunkers with an alternative line of play away from the bunkers.  

Having seen and played several Langford Sahara-like holes which look like the hole at Acacia I made the connection between the hole at Acacia and NGLA's Sahara.  I am reasonably confident of that connection.  

Beyond that I can also see the significant differences when compared to Rivieria, in particular the fact the cross bunker is not a desert wasteland and does not create blindness.  Add to that the bunker on the far left landing area that challenges the best line to the green and the green size, shape and bunkering and the holes are not really that similar without taking any elevation differences into account.   The green size and shape alone makes it easy to see why they would play like they are nothing alike.  

I'm curious though to what extent does elevation play in how differently they play or is it the green or something else.  

 

[RJ_Daley]

Dan, what Langford holes can you I.D., that are sahara-like.  I haven't played so many Langford's courses as you.  At Lawsonia, the only configuration that comes to mind is #8.  But, with the typical raised plateau-like Langford green, even a very big hitter won't likely get it to roll up onto the green platform at the end of the roll-out of a huge drive.  I only got to about 80yards once on a great line, and had a shot up and into the green from the front left, not having to cross the fronting bunker front right.  Usually, I hit a little half driver or 3W out to the left rather than challenge the gull winged (saharalike) bunker and rough up right side.  There is plenty of room out left.

[Jeff Doerr]

My initial question really wanted to know, "Did Langford, Thomas, and others losely base their short par 4 concept on some known hole(template)?"

As I recall, #10 at Bandon Dunes also has this short hole feel/look. Did Kidd base it on Riviera or something else?

The genius at Riviera is evident, but did it evolve some as indicated by the LINKS article? Did Thomas invent/develop that style of short hole? Where did his concept come from?

[Dan Moore]

Jeff,

At the risk of digging myself into a deeper hole I offer these quotes.

"The principal of the hole is to give the player on the tee a number of alternatives according to his strength and courage.  If he plays for the green and succeeds he has an advantage of at least one stroke over the opponent who takes the shorter carry (...) and probably more than one stroke over the player who avoids the carry altogether.  But if he fails he is bunkered and may take five or six and lose to the short player who goes around."  

"The (...th) is not complicated: Lay up down the (...) side and leave a short pitch to (the) green. Knowing this, players still cave to temptation and play straight at the green either intentionally or via some subconscious refusal to lay up (...). The aggressive route to the hole rarely leads to eagles, or even birdies, and almost always causes round-deflating pars and bogeys."

The terrain, style and nature of the hazards, and size and shape of greens may be different, but I still see the fundamental strategic concept of these holes as essentially the same.  Take the risky route over a cross bunker which must be carried in order to attack the green from the tee or lay up off to the side of the primary hazard to set up a short safe second.  

Rivieria is 315 yds today, Acacia was 280 yds in 1924 and NGLA was an uphill 262 yds in 1920.  

Doubtful that Thomas invented the driveable, highly strategic, short par 4, but he did perfect one version of it.  As Macdonald wrote of his Sahara at NGLA, it was based on  "the basic principle of all the best full drive holes."  

I am pretty sure Langford was familiar with the work of his fellow former Chicagoan Macdonald.  And he was after all in graduate school at Columbia Univ. in NY during the genesis of NGLA.  

[Dan Moore]

Dick,

Here is one example of a Langford Sahara style hole.  This is the 255yd (now 285yd) 14th at Spring Valley CC.  Its essentially a mirror image of the hole at Acacia.  The green was designed to be 14,000 sq. ft.  There are some hellacious undulations in the fringe areas that would be green if maintained at the original size.  

When it warms up we'll have to meet there some morning and hit a Brewers or Cubs game.  Talk some union biz.

This is from the owners original Langford and Moreau 4 by 6 ft irrigation plan.  

[Tim Gavrich]

Is that second green in the aerial of #10 at Riviera an actual alternate green for member play?  It's not used in the Nissan Open, is it?

I'm very surprised that #10 at Riviera isn't replicated more often in the modern day.  It would be a cinch to copy, seeing how it looks like a rare great hole on which terrain matters very little (I undderstand it's essentially a flat hole).