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Lloyd_Cole

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Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2007, 04:10:12 PM »
Tom
This is exciting news. I'll be sure to book a Denver show with a day off when it's done!!
Will you be keeping existing elements, or are you starting from scratch?

Joe
I'm lucky in that my work forcers me to travel, so I see a fair amount of courses. I do still have to budget for time off to do so, and I can tell you that the cost of the course is the last thing I'm concerned with UNLESS it is extremely high. I'm hapy to go out of my way to play good courses. Good and cheap is even better.
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2007, 04:18:49 PM »
Quote from: Tim Pitner on January 21, 2007, 03:40:52 PM
Joe,

I'm a little perplexed by your question.  An affordably priced public-access golf course obviously draws a different market than a high-priced resort.  Tom's new course in the Denver area (fingers crossed) won't bring in the same people that Pacific Dunes does.  Presumably, it will depend on the local or perhaps regional market--not the national one.  


Tim,

I think you just expanded my questiona bit. If TD comes and does this job near you, why will it be less attractive as a destination course vs. the best local course? Understandably, if compared to Pac Dunes, there is the missing "other" courses, the lodging, the ocean, etc. But, what about other destinations? Erin Hills has been frequented by an awful lot of folks...do you think the course TD does in Denver will be less attractive because of.....price?....quality?....I'd have a hard time believing TD's effort wouldnt be as good, regardless of his reduced fee.

I'm just trying to get a handle on what people are after. Minimalism with a high price tag seems to be the winning combo.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2007, 04:36:46 PM »
Joe,

Personally, I'm with Lloyd--great golf is what I'm after; inexpensive, great golf is even better.  

It's doubtful that Tom's future course will be a "destination" course.  Consider what I view as the Denver area's best public-access course now--Riverdale Dunes.  No one plans their vacation around playing Riverdale Dunes.  Even a business traveler who has a few days in Denver is more likely to play something like Bear Dance or the Ridge at Castle Pines North than Riverdale.  

Some of the reason for this is marketing.  Another reason is that there are a lot of golfers out there who don't want anything approaching minimalism.  They want manicured conditions, carts, and a nice place to have lunch.  

Re: Erin Hills, I doubt that its appeal will be much more than regional.  It's gotten a lot of publicity and will get more, but I don't see it as a Bandon sort of destination, or even a Kohler/Whistling Straits sort of place.  This isn't to demean the project; it just isn't as dramatic.  

Where was I?--yes, Tom's course in Aurora.  I see no reason why it couldn't be one of Denver's best and most popular courses.  Now, if you charge only $29 and pack the tee sheet, some people may be turned off.  And, some of the subtleties of the course may be lost on some golfers.  But, I know a lot of golfers who like what "minimalism" has to offer, even if they're not familiar with the term and haven't really thought much about it.  
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Don_Mahaffey

Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2007, 04:48:27 PM »
Joe,
Who knows what people are after?
I know that I'd love to have a high quality golf course close by that doesn't have a 6 figure initiation fee or $200+ green fee.
What I'm saying is I believe high quality affordable golf is possible if we in golf can convince developers that you don't need to spend $10 million to build something good. Problem is, maybe that's not in our best interest and so lower budgeted golf courses get tagged automatically with the "it was cheap so it can't be any good" tag. That's certainly not true about The Mines...is it? And the owners of The Mines aren’t counting on people driving 100+ miles to play...are they.
I'd love to see Devries get a site like Bandon or something in the Sand Hills, but I also hope he still finds a way to make a profit building courses like The Mines. That's the point I'm trying to make.

If there's one thing I've learned, it's that everybody does their best to separate the client from his money. Doesn't mean they don't want to do good work, but they know he has money and they want as much of it as they can get. With strong developers or owner’s reps, and if the right team is assembled, everyone can do just fine and a quality project can be had. Common sense can prevail.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 04:57:14 PM by Don_Mahaffey »
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2007, 05:11:11 PM »
Don,

Gotcha. I am probably mixing several issues, but thanks for your example.

Of course, I think everyone wants cheap AND good AND convenient. Even famous musicians like Lloyd Cole. ;) (Now I need to convince him to get to West Michigan!)

The Mines would love to have people drive from 100 miles away to play. Why not? But you are correct in that they didn't base their business model on it. And, I'm not smart enough to know what the Mines would have to do differently to market itself beyond the local area.

If one thing rings true with your posts, it is that you understand the effects of greed. That's a societal woe, not just the golf industry...er, not industry..... ;D

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2007, 06:16:23 PM »
Joe,
I'm not so sure it's greed as much as what the freight will bear.
You've seen it, identical products, one sold in agriculture, the other in golf and the golf product costs 2X. It's sort of like auto vs. marine. It can be the same exact part, but the marine part costs a lot more...people who own boats have more money...people who build and maintain golf courses have more $$$ then the farmer down the street. Yes, there are other labeling and marketing issues, but I've seen the same fertilizer cost a lot more when a golf course buys it. Problem is, the end user pays for it all.

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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2007, 08:35:10 PM »
Quote from: Don_Mahaffey on January 21, 2007, 06:16:23 PM
Joe,
I'm not so sure it's greed as much as what the freight will bear.
You've seen it, identical products, one sold in agriculture, the other in golf and the golf product costs 2X. It's sort of like auto vs. marine. It can be the same exact part, but the marine part costs a lot more...people who own boats have more money...people who build and maintain golf courses have more $$$ then the farmer down the street. Yes, there are other labeling and marketing issues, but I've seen the same fertilizer cost a lot more when a golf course buys it. Problem is, the end user pays for it all.


Don,
Try irrigation...I know a couple of very good installers that will contract the labor and equipment on a job for $220 per head....but let them work for a general contractor and the client is charged $500....have seen it....
AND as a supt you are aware of all the little things...I think one of the funniest is tournament bedknives and their lifespan....no wonder manufacturers want to get the cut lower....and then of course we have the special divot filling green sand......
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"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2007, 08:36:06 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on January 21, 2007, 05:11:11 PM
Even famous musicians like Lloyd Cole. ;) (Now I need to convince him to get to West Michigan!)
Joe
No convincing needed. My wife is from Kalamazoo. Just like the song. I'm heading out that way sometime pretty soon. There is too much good looking golf around there for me to have played almost none of it (UofM MacKenzie/Hills course is nearest I've been).
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Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2007, 08:55:44 PM »
I think it is possible that we can have regional, rather than local, destination courses. If it's possible to drive there, play 36 and drive home, leaving in darkness and returning at bedtime, then if the course is good and the price is right, serious golfers from round and about will come, if they know about it. I did that last year just to play 18 at Bethpage...
Most of my golfing pals here in W. Mass are somewhat frugal. But they often go on these day trips to New Hampshire and Connecticut, maybe not 100 miles, but 75.. and their decision as to where to go is almost always an economic one. I often don't go as the courses are usually cart tracks. I would say that these guys spending $130 for a days golf (plus bets) is a big deal, and while they don't expect a strategic test, they won't travel for a poorly conditioned course.
This year I am going to try to persuade them to try Wintonbury Hills. Hopefully we can have cake and eat it, and I can walk.
Maybe you don't fly out of your way to visit WH, but if you're in Harford on business, you certainly try to make time.
What am I saying here? That there is a keen blue collar market, guys who might not be a member of a club, or if they are their course isn't giving them all the challenge or enjoyment, or thrill that they might want, who are nevertheless keen golfers and not always Joe Sixpack. These folk will travel and pay if the price is right.
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2007, 09:18:24 PM »
Lloyd:

Bandon Dunes was one of those regional destinations before it was truly national ... 85% of the play those first two years was from the Portland and Seattle markets.  The best regional destinations become national, especially when they add a second good course.

Let me know when you come to West Michigan.  If it's too cold to play in Traverse City maybe we can try Lost Dunes.
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2007, 09:50:06 AM »
Lloyd, forget Denver...  Book yourself a concert at the Sand Hills Convention Center in North Platte, NE.  Stay three extra days, and play the triad, BallyNeal, SHGC and Wild Horse!   ;) ;D 8)
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Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2007, 10:29:07 AM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on January 22, 2007, 09:50:06 AM
Lloyd, forget Denver...  Book yourself a concert at the Sand Hills Convention Center in North Platte, NE.  Stay three extra days, and play the triad, BallyNeal, SHGC and Wild Horse!   ;) ;D 8)
RJ
Of course this is also something I hope to do.. I have actually played in Lincoln a couple of times, so it's not that far out of the way..
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Jay Flemma

Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2007, 10:56:15 AM »
How bout Kelly Blake Moran or Forrest Fezler?

How do you define minimalism?  Really not moving more than 100,000 CCs?  Or moving more than that and not counting it because "well I picked it up, but replaced it nearby?"

Dick, I'll book a concert there and join you for that triad!  You can have seats next to Adam C and Eddie Peck on the side of the stage!:) 8)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 10:57:13 AM by Jay Flemma »
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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2007, 11:00:48 AM »
Jay,

   I have played two of Kelly's courses and the word "minimalist" never came to mind. Words like " daring " or " bold" did.
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Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2007, 11:14:15 AM »
Quote from: RJ_Daley on January 22, 2007, 09:50:06 AM
Lloyd, forget Denver...  Book yourself a concert at the Sand Hills Convention Center in North Platte, NE.  Stay three extra days, and play the triad, BallyNeal, SHGC and Wild Horse!   ;) ;D 8)

So, in a discussion about building affordable but inspiring courses, we again get references to courses like Ballyneal and Sand Hills (as well as Wild Horse, to be fair).  As great as those courses are, their inaccessibility (to most) is a point against them, in my book.  I'd like to see golf in the U.S. be more like golf in Scotland/Ireland and, while Ballyneal and Sand Hills get it right in terms of design and naturalness, they miss on the egalitarian nature of the game.  That's why Wild Horse, Rustic Canyon and perhaps Tom's project in Denver are so great.  
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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2007, 11:36:06 AM »
Quote from: Tim Pitner on January 21, 2007, 03:40:52 PM
Golf travel is tough for me these days, and getting back to Ireland, going to Scotland and returning to Bandon to check out Old MacDonald will probably take precedence.  Just a reality when resources (time, money) are finite.  

Ya got lots of time to wait for Old MacDonald, since it isn't due to open until 2010.   :o
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tlavin

Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2007, 11:42:55 AM »
Can we be dispassionate enough, even temporarily, to consider the concept that there won't be a "next minimalist"?  Is it possible for the cognoscenti herein to contemplate whether this movement that we celebrate on a daily basis will prove to be anything more than a cycle?  

Who will be the next leader in golf architecture to break away from minimalism?  Where will that leader take golf architecture?  There has to be room for growth and stasis is not good for any endeavor, so I think the more interesting question is where will gca go when minimalism has run its course.

Heresy?  Maybe, but I think it has to be contemplated.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2007, 03:14:12 PM »
How about, who are all the original minimalists? There have been an awful lot of minimalist golf courses build for little money on interesting sites, but seldom do you see anyone discuss the architects. Perhaps the question should be who will be the next minimalist to gain fame (and fortune?)?

The Pacific Northwest Golf Association recently published an article about Les Furber who has done most of his work in western Canada. I have not played any of his courses, but the article praised them and praised him for bringing good golf to the masses.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2007, 03:28:47 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on January 21, 2007, 03:03:57 PM
Okay, Tim.

Last week we were hired by the Colorado Golf Association to redesign and rebuild their Mira Vista course in Aurora.  They have raised $4 million to spend on the course but the goal is to keep it a $29 golf course, and to that end, we are doing the work for a fraction of our current fees.

It won't be too fancy but it should be good golf along the lines of what Don is looking for.

PS  Had you heard something about it or is it just your lucky day?

Tom,

This is great news! The CGA has been looking to do something with Mira Vista (orginally a military course for Lowry AFB) since it took it over nearly 10 years ago. I actually like the existing course for what it's worth, a neglected muny with some decent holes and a great value. Will be curious to see your routing and redesign on this mainly flat property. The good news is there's plenty of room there, especially if you can use the NW part of the property where there aren't any holes now. FYI (and I'm sure you know this) the soil sure seems lousy on that site. What's the estimated time for completion?
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archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who’s the next minimalist?
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2007, 04:49:30 PM »
   me. cause I'm not doing anything

       lol
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