[Mark_F]

Someone famous once said that a great course must contain great holes.

But some have them in greater number than others.

Does Royal Portrush, for instance, have anything more than two - 5th and 14th - genuinely world class holes?

It surely pales in this manner next to County Down, yet some rate Portrush higher, and many only a spot or two lower.

What are the nuances that Portrush possesses to facilitate this?

Another one is Dornoch.  Much as I love the place, surely only 4 and 14 could be legitimate world class holes?

[Phil_the_Author]

IMHO... Pinehurst #2.

[wsmorrison]

Pebble Beach is probably the poster child of a great course with a lot of mediocre holes.  The world-class holes and views really seem to make up for these in many people's minds.

Mark,

There are some definite world-class par 3s at Dornoch and a few other holes you do not consider world-class that I do (3, 5, 8, 11 and maybe 17 come to mind).  There are some weak holes, but not many.

In my mind there are only a handful of courses that have all great holes.  Of classic courses, Merion, Pine Valley and Shinnecock are certainly in such a rarefied category and may well be alone in that regard.  I know these courses very well so that might skew my opinion a bit.  But what other courses can you say that about?

[michael j fay]

While Dornoch and Pinehurst #2 do not have an abundance of "great holes" they both have 18 interesting and challenging greens. Both courses also present a continuum, the theme never falters and the player gets the sense that he is playing a series of holes that fit the land, fit the challenge and gives him fits.

[wsmorrison]

Sean,

I listed 3 courses that in my opinion have 18 great holes.  Shinnecock, Merion, and Pine Valley.  Which holes aren't great?  And among these three courses are some of the greatest holes in the world:

Shinnecock:  1,6,7,9,10-14,16
Merion: 1,3,5,8,11,14-18
Pine Valley:  2,5,7,8,12,13,16-18

Mark,

Sorry for straying from the topic

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Isn't it interesting what Jim Finegan said in his talk about Philly CC, his home course?

Remember? He said something like he thought it was a wonderful course that actually had no great holes just a lot of good ones.  

Just leave it to Jim to turn a phrase and an interesting idea!

Wayno, with your list of courses that have 18 great holes, as usual you aren't playing with a full deck because you forgot to list the world's greatest hidden gem---Fernandina Municipal GC. At least that's the way I look at it even if I may've been mistaken and it only has 1.8 great holes. Or maybe it was only .18 great holes.

[TEPaul]

Sean:

You don't have to be lucky to play those three great courses. Luck has very little to do with it. Just send me a check for $39,000 and I'll take the luck factor down below zippo!

[Brad Tufts]

I was just reading part of Finegan's golf is great British Isles book last night, and he said almost that very line about The Island...

[Doug Ralston]

Eage Ridge is a good example. Though a great course, it only has a few great holes. I guess only #2, #3, #4 [IMHO], #6, #7, #8, #10, #12, #13(!), #15, and #18 would be considered 'great', the others are only pretty good. You just have to try to enjoy those 'lesser ones' while waiting to be exhilirated.

Too bad.  

Too good!

Doug

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Jim did say something very interesting the night of the Flynn Invitational at Philadelphia Country Club.  He said that Philadelphia Country Club is a great course without a single great hole.  Jim noted that all the holes are very solid and are routed in a progression that was ideal.

[wsmorrison]

Sean,

If we're driving around to great Philadelphia golf courses and listening to Tom Waits, it doesn't get any better than that!

Tom Waits is my very favorite singer-song writer.  I have been following him for more than 30 years, have everything he ever published and have seen him perform numerous times.  

In fact, the greatest show I ever saw was Tom Waits performing solo at the Academy of Music in Philadelphia.  He opened with Jitterbug Boy under a single spotlight while leaning on a lamp post flipping a quarter with his cigarette and cocked hat.  Unbelievable!

[Adam_Messix]

Wayne & Tom--

I think it may be a bit of a stretch to say that Philly Country doesn't have a great hole.  It seems to me that the entire stretch through the central part of the property is great stuff.  But I just keep coming back to that 15th hole and seeing a GREAT par three.  Yes, it's long, but an average player can hit a shot and curve up with the slope.  That's all you can really ask of a hole isn't it, tough for the stronger player, but can be played by the average guy.  

[Brad Tufts]

Not to worry Sean, after landing in Dublin at 7:30AM on June 28th and a quick nap, I will be playing The Island at 2:30...

[mike_malone]

 I made my list of Merion holes that I think are not "great".

    1-2-4-6-8-10-13.

  Interestingly, it closely matches Wayne's list of the " among the greatest in the world".

   He has 1 and 8 in that "gitw" category. Here we disagree.

[mike_malone]

 As for PCC , I would say #4 is a great hole even though it appears simple. It uses the rise and fall of the land extremely well. I also see 15-16- 17 as three wonderful holes in a row---uphill demanding par three, interesting downhill lie for a wedge to a great green complex, and a world class par four.

[Anthony Butler]

Pebble Beach is probably the poster child of a great course with a lot of mediocre holes.  The world-class holes and views really seem to make up for these in many people's minds.

Mark,

There are some definite world-class par 3s at Dornoch and a few other holes you do not consider world-class that I do (3, 5, 8, 11 and maybe 17 come to mind).  There are some weak holes, but not many.

In my mind there are only a handful of courses that have all great holes.  Of classic courses, Merion, Pine Valley and Shinnecock are certainly in such a rarefied category and may well be alone in that regard.  I know these courses very well so that might skew my opinion a bit.  But what other courses can you say that about?

Part of the reason some great golf courses appear to have many mediocre holes is the fact the good holes are so spectacular the other holes pale into comparison. It's hard for a simple inland uphill par 4 at Pebble Beach (13) to look good right next to a stretch like 8-10. That is the curse that any course with holes right on the coast has to bear. It is certainly a charge that can be leveled at Cypress Point, Turnberry, my own home course and many others.
 
On the other hand, the courses that are near the coast seem to benefit from the characteristics of seaside golf evenly influencing all holes... in that vein, I would put Muirfield in the same class as Shinnecock.    

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

You are hopeless, aren't you?  Your list that closely matches mine has 2 of 7.  That's close?  I guess 1 of 7 is pretty close and 0 of 7 must be fairly close.  You don't know the course well enough to make such statements, but tell me why in particular do you not think that 1 and 8 are among the world's great holes.

As for Philadelphia Country Club, those are Jim's remarks and I respect his perspective a great deal.  The man has played PCC more than 10,000 times, he has a perspective, albeit subjective, none of us will ever have.  I believe that 14-17 is a terrific stretch of great holes and the 3rd may just be the best bunkered par 5 I have ever seen and a great hole in its own right.  Mike Malone picks 4 as a great hole.  It is a strong hole with a very subtle green, but great?  In my mind, not in relation to the ones I mention above.

[wsmorrison]

Anthony,

It has been a long time since I've played Pebble Beach (prior to the revised 5th hole) but I think the first few holes are only so-so holes on any course, 11 is fair and 13 OK.  The difference in quality between these and the great holes at Pebble Beach may be the greatest of any great course.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   You said all the holes at Merion are great and listed some that that you saw as among the greatest in the world. I said that I agree with all but two of your "ghiw" choices as "great". That is why I said we "sort of " agree.

     Some of the holes you did not list as "ghiw" I consider to not even be great.


   As for #1 and #8 , I think they have very straightforward strategies associated with their play--stay out of trouble with the drive and hit a wedge to the middle of the green. That's nice but not great. I also believe there is a visual aspect to greatness. #5  #16 are two holes that grab you on the tee and challenge you throughout with many possible shots.


   As to not having played the course enough, I guess I'll just have to give into your constant invitations more often

     

[TEPaul]

Wayno:

Tom Waits??

Who in the hell is that? Never heard of the guy. What's he do, just lean against a lamp-post smoking a cigarrette and flipping a quarter waiting for something??

Hell I can do that.

Have you ever seen the trick Tiger does with one hand and a quarter? Unbelievable. He can probably lean against a lamp post and smoke a cigarrette and wait for something better than Tom Waits too.

By the way, what's Tom Waiting for anyway?

[Kalen Braley]

I think all of these previous posts really show the sometimes arbitrary nature of just what is a great hole.  

For example at PacDunes, while many rave about #4 and #13, and rightly so, those didn't really stick out to me as much as #2,7,11,14,and 18.  So there is no real right or wrong here.

The best we can do is take a poll and see what most people prefer, and there you go!!

[Paul_Turner]

Only 4 great holes at Dornoch and Portrush combined?  Result of a severely jaded palette?

[Jason Blasberg]

In my mind there are only a handful of courses that have all great holes.  Of classic courses, Merion, Pine Valley and Shinnecock are certainly in such a rarefied category and may well be alone in that regard.  I know these courses very well so that might skew my opinion a bit.  But what other courses can you say that about?

Prairie Dunes has not a weak hole or even average hole.  Some here are critical of Press' holes but I find 11 and 16 for example, to both be in the top 5 or 6 holes on the course.

As Ran states in his review:

"The best way to convince someone of the merit of such a plan is simply to showcase each hole because they are individually of such a uniformly high standard that no one's architectural education could be considered complete without studying this course."

[George Pazin]

It seems to me there are some holes that mmay not be great on their own individual merits, but are great, when considered as part of the whole on a great course.

No points for guessing the course that I think has 18 great holes....

 

[wsmorrison]

Tom P,

You are so square.  Who is Tom Waits?  Tom Waits for no man that's who.

I'll make you a CD.  You can play that when you aren't listening to Barbra Streisand, Liza Minelli and your show tunes  

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