A case for a 5th major, fall classic invitational.

[RJ_Daley]

Most golfers anxiously await the traditional start of the golf season, with their devotion to the Master's Invitational.

The annual classic is held by invitation-qualifying procedure, and the field is limitted.  

It is obviously held on a storied course with great design pedigree, with the greatest golfer of his time collaborating with one of the greatest architects of the time.

The ANGC is a very exclusive club, and access is highly restricted generally only seen during the toon-a-mint, adding to its' mystique.  The membership and the Masters (TM) makes a great deal of money on the TV contract and marketing, that they use for charitable and course upkeep purposes (my understanding).

Now we have a similar great course in Sebonack.  It was designed by a world's greatest golfer and designer, with architectural collaboration with one of the greatest modern architects.  The membership and access to the course is similarly restricted and not many will ever get to see it, unless it is televised in some event.  It is located on a beautiful setting, that would sparkle in early Oct.

http://web.mac.com/larrylambrecht/iWeb/Site/Sebonack%20Golf%20Club.html

While I haven't seen the course, I get the impression that it is sufficiently designed to be set up as a major test of golfing skill.  

The setting is awesome and since they already have held a major next door to it at Shinny several times, the locational logistics should not be a problem.

The NGLA and Shinny are neighbors, and could be enlisted as backup support in shared tournament week facilities of extra practice grounds, club house space, media ad corporate tents and facilities, etc.

Could the Master's (TM) marketing model be used at Sebonack to hold a 5th major to bookend the traditional/sentimental annual opening of the golf year at ANGC with an annual closing event at Sebonack?  Does the course have the bones to support it, and might the membership have the inclination?

[Garland Bayley]

Perhaps Jack should drop the Memorial, which he admits is plagued by weather problems, and create his "Victors' Invitational". Eventually Tiger could build a course in a location with better Memorial Day weather than Ohio, and create a "Champions' Invitational". I believe there is plenty of land next to Chambers Bay for a second course.   And, the memorial day weather would be better.

[PThomas]

interesting Dick

but there's no way the Tour would support it, I bet because:

1. they are stiil trying to get the TPC to be the fifth major

and

2. it would take away from the drama of the Fed Ex Cup

[Kalen Braley]

I thought the players is the new 5th major, especially now that it has the coveted slot in May.  

[tlavin]

Lay off the Maui Wowie, my friend.  There's no way that the tour would ever embrace something like this.  I'm guessing the membership wouldn't be all that excited about it either, but there are a couple other hurdles.  First, we don't know whether the course would hold up to professional play.  Second, there is very little room on the golf calendar and the Tour is just starting with this FedEx experiment (aka the Vijay Singh endurance tour), so there's really no room in the fall.  Finally there are really only three majors.  (The PGA is pretty weak, IMHO.)  So, I doubt that there would ever be room for another "major".

[RJ_Daley]

People talk about the Memorial or Players Championship having the status to be the missing major in an every month schedule of April - Masters through August - PGA.  If either of those receive major status, then what about a 6th major, like the Sebonack classic in Oct?  Have a major every 5-6 weeks...

[Garland Bayley]

interesting Dick

but there's no way the Tour would support it, I bet because:

1. they are stiil trying to get the TPC to be the fifth major

and

2. it would take away from the drama of the Fed Ex Cup

I think there should be a separate grouping for all time greats invitationals that can be limited field events such as the Masters. As a limited field event controlled outside the toru, it should create no problem. As many also know, I think the Masters should be dropped as a major and the TPC used to replace it.

[RJ_Daley]

Also Terry, My understanding was that the annual invitational held in Augusta didn't need the PGA stamp of approval, necessarily.  It was Bobby Jones's and the club's invitational.  

Couldn't the Sebonack club, or a triad of Sebonac, NGLA, and Shinnecock start in a similar manner.  

What if the invitational were created as such, without the approval of the PGA, and they got enough (big apple scale) prize money sponsorship, and sent the invitations out to say the world top 40-60, with special 10 or so invites?  Would the top players not show up for the huge cash, and prestige, if it were handled and marketed as high presitige?

[Kalen Braley]

Lay off the Maui Wowie, my friend.  There's no way that the tour would ever embrace something like this.  I'm guessing the membership wouldn't be all that excited about it either, but there are a couple other hurdles.  First, we don't know whether the course would hold up to professional play.  Second, there is very little room on the golf calendar and the Tour is just starting with this FedEx experiment (aka the Vijay Singh endurance tour), so there's really no room in the fall.  Finally there are really only three majors.  (The PGA is pretty weak, IMHO.)  So, I doubt that there would ever be room for another "major".

Not sure why the PGA has the perception of being weak?  It has a much stronger field than the Masters and depending on the year has a stronger field than either the U.S. Open or the Open itself. As far as the strongest field, look no further than the players which wins this category every year. If anything it deserves a real shot at being a "major".

I look no further than to 2004.  The PGA tournament at WS was much more enjoyable, less gimacky than the USGA boys had going at SH.

[john_stiles]

RJ,

Do you work and live in Jacksonville ?

We might actually be up to 6 now  .

The Players Championship in May is the 5th.

Now the US  PGA has the 6th major,  the  FedEx Platform Cup in September for $10 whopping million bucks.

I like the balance of the present 4 majors in a season.

 

[Jon Wiggett]

Guys, if there is need for a 5th major (which to me there isn't) then it should definately be somewhere else than in the USA. The USA already has three and it is not as if that many of the worlds top players come from there.

[Matthew Hunt]

It would produce low numbers of International Winners

[tlavin]

The reference to the PGA being the weakest of the majors stems from the fact that there is much less interest in that event compared to the three earlier majors.  Combine that with the fact that the PGA is hosted on courses that don't measure up to the sites of the other majors and you have an event that pales in comparison.  Does it have a better field?  Sure.  Is the setup more conducive to exciting golf?  Sure.  Does it have the same buzz that the other three majors have?  Nowhere close.

[Kalen Braley]

The reference to the PGA being the weakest of the majors stems from the fact that there is much less interest in that event compared to the three earlier majors.  Combine that with the fact that the PGA is hosted on courses that don't measure up to the sites of the other majors and you have an event that pales in comparison.  Does it have a better field?  Sure.  Is the setup more conducive to exciting golf?  Sure.  Does it have the same buzz that the other three majors have?  Nowhere close.

It would be interesting to take a look at the revenues and TV viewership compared to the other majors.

But I think thier sites have been solid for the most part.  Just looking over the last 20 years they have played at Baltusrol, Winged Foot, Riveria, Southern Hills, and Crooked Stick among others.  Going back further its been held at the likes of Pebble, Oakmont, and Congressional.

I think the time of year hurts them as well as many are vacationing and doing other summer activities.  Then throw in that Grand Slam aspirations are gone by then, its a tough spot to be in.

[Garland Bayley]

...the PGA is hosted on courses that don't measure up to the sites of the other majors...

Balderdash. The PGA has locked up sites the US Open would like to use, so the US Open is off playing places like Torrey Pines.

[RJ_Daley]

My inquiry was more oriented to focus on Sebonack or a triad with NGLA and Shinny.  

The parallels to ANGC with Sebonack are what strike me in terms of the founders, designers, and nature of the exclusive clubs.  I can't speak for the challenge to the top player's golf skill since I have only seen photos.  

If you can get past all the ancillary questions of whether other locations merit a 5th major, or if it is the 5th- 6th or competition with the Fed Ex Cup, the question is:  Does Sebonack present a viable venue and challenge based on a comparable founding and operation to ANGC and their organizational plan as a major golf event?

[Phil_the_Author]

There is a 5th major already.

It is called the US Amateur.

If it isn't, then why has it been written that those who have won other "majors" should then consider their Amateur victory as a major?

[RJ_Daley]

Phil, good point... Could the yearly USGA AM, be held on this triad of courses, every year?  The Merion event was very special, but would having it at one place like this trio, be wrong?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Nice one there Phillip. I think only a Match play event could become a 5th major and those two courses would make for great drama. Toss in Shinny and OMG it might be too much.

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:

I think Sebonack would hold up okay to professional play ... whoever questioned that has most likely not played it.

However, you just can't have five majors.  It skews the results of who's won how many ... like when Bernie Williams and Manny Ramirez are the top postseason home-run hitters of all time, passing Mickey Mantle.  They had 3 rounds of playoffs every year to help them along.  Tennis has four majors, golf has four, and that's how it's going to stay.

The one tantalizing part of your suggestion is that a fall golf event in the Hamptons would be just sensational ... the courses are in perfect condition, and the members and the summer crowd are mostly gone, so the courses would consider it.  Probably not for an annual event, but I wouldn't be surprised if someday there was a one-off event similar to the one you've suggested.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, thanks for your thoughts.  The idea of not skewing the stats with a 5th major is a very strong point of order.

So, that swings me even more so to Phil's observation about the US-Am.  

Could that Am be held later in the year (Oct) and use Sebonack as the one venue, or the triad of the Long Island rota.

I was originally thinking of all the similarities to Sebonack's founding and club characteristics to ANGC.  I was thinking how as an invitational, the business and organization model of the Masters (Tm) would be viable for a club like Sebonack to work off of.  I don't think the AM would generate the kind of following that the Masters does, due to the field of known world greatest.  

But, Tom, are you being modest when you say Sebonack would hold up "okay", or would it be a serious year in and out test with a set up that wouldn't be thought of as tricked up, like they did at Shinny for US Open?  

[Kalen Braley]

RJ:

I think Sebonack would hold up okay to professional play ... whoever questioned that has most likely not played it.

However, you just can't have five majors.  It skews the results of who's won how many ... like when Bernie Williams and Manny Ramirez are the top postseason home-run hitters of all time, passing Mickey Mantle.  They had 3 rounds of playoffs every year to help them along.  Tennis has four majors, golf has four, and that's how it's going to stay.

The one tantalizing part of your suggestion is that a fall golf event in the Hamptons would be just sensational ... the courses are in perfect condition, and the members and the summer crowd are mostly gone, so the courses would consider it.  Probably not for an annual event, but I wouldn't be surprised if someday there was a one-off event similar to the one you've suggested.

An event like this among all 3 of those courses or even one of them would be fantastic, especially to those on this site.

But I wonder how many average viewers at home would tune in just because of the venue?  I think it would have to draw a top notch field to get others to tune in as well.

As for myself I would be glued to the set just watching the local club championship on any of these courses.

[Garland Bayley]

I agree with Tom. A grand slam clears the bases, of which there are only 4, and add 4 to your total. There should be 4 majors. The Masters is the odd ball. I think it belongs in a grouping of great player associated events. My original suggestion was for the tour to take TPC on the road in May with alternative venues for the fourth major. I have modified that to have a global association of tours rotate the event. E.g. European, South African, Japanese and Asian, US, AustralAsia, so the event would be outside the US four out of five years.

[Jon Wiggett]

Good thinking Garland, a most acceptable compromise.

Phil, the US amateur along with the British amateur used to be part of the original grand slam until the world of modern professional golf came into being. But these days any one claiming that either should be considered a major is not being very realistic. Although the fields are strong for an amateur event it is not in the league as a top flight PGA event. I have to say I agree with Tiger B in that a matchplay major should be reintroduced. Maybe the USPGA?

[Garland Bayley]

Good thinking Garland, a most acceptable compromise.

Phil, the US amateur along with the British amateur used to be part of the original grand slam until the world of modern professional golf came into being. But these days any one claiming that either should be considered a major is not being very realistic. Although the fields are strong for an amateur event it is not in the league as a top flight PGA event. I have to say I agree with Tiger B in that a matchplay major should be reintroduced. Maybe the USPGA?

The US Am is a differentiator, not a major. If by some quirk of fate, Jack and Tiger end up with 18 majors, Tiger's three ams will be the amunition to conclude Tiger was the greatest of all time.