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Dan Herrmann

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2007, 09:37:14 AM »
RG,

No, it is one of only 3 existing Flynn's I haven't yet been to.  I guess there's no excuse.  Maybe I'll go tomorrow, but I was hoping to go see Phoenixville, so I'll save PM for another time.

Phoenixville?  Don't they claim to be a Hugh Wilson design?

Actually, Phoenixville has a par 3 that does remind me of Merion West's 5th hole - seriously downhill with OB to the right.  


Phonixville has some seriously quirky holes.  It's obvious that they found themselves "islanded" before they could finish their back 9.  In fact, their practice area only allows for 9 irons or less.

They have one non-architectural feature that I really liked.  They use steel buckets filled with water on their tees for club and ball washing.  These look like they might be from the 1930s or earlier - they're attached to a pole like you'd see a modern-day ball washer using.  It's tough to describe, but they're real antiques.

I think Phoenixville went through some redesign in the last 20 years; some of their holes don't seem to have the character of the others.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 09:42:08 AM by Dan Herrmann »

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2007, 09:44:52 AM »
Dan,

Yes, it is Hugh Wilson.  However, it is a course I've been meaning to see for quite a long time.  Flynn probably helped him with the construction as he was Merion's greenskeeper at the time.

D_Malley

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2007, 09:45:23 AM »
dan
i think you mean merion west #4

Dan Herrmann

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2007, 09:55:37 AM »
RG,
Nah - not 4...

It may be 6 or 7..  That real steep downhill hole just before that wonderful short par 4 down in the hollow.

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2007, 09:58:01 AM »
Dan,

6 is the short (119 yards) downhill (70 feet) that starts the quirky corner at Merion West.  I hope to get over to Phoenixville tomorrow, possibly with Mike Cirba.  Do you want to join us?

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2007, 10:08:30 AM »
Perhaps Ran will let some of us post a list of courses such as the one on this thread in the Courses by Architect section for reference purposes.  

Mark_Fine

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2007, 10:10:23 AM »
RG,
As I said in that other recent thread on Ross, (Robert McNeil and I) expect to be starting the restoration project at Pocono Manor East soon.  It was delayed due to the pending slots decison and got further delayed due to Mt. Airy getting the license.  It will get done eventually.  It is just a matter of time.  The resort was sold and the new owners realize they have a great opportunity to do something special.  

If Flynn did touch the Ross holes, he didn't do too much as it is pretty easy to see the differences.  Furthermore, the Flynn holes match up well with the Flynn plans.  I've been up there over a half dozen times and know the course pretty well.  I can't say too much more at this time other than the fact that it might very well be the best design in the Poconos when finished.  Your observation about it being worth seeing and having some unique features is right on!

As Wayne says, Flynn's list of courses that he designed and/or was associated with is quite impressive.  Very few realize just how many good ones he was involved with.

Looking quickly over the list, I haven't seen as many as Wayne as I still have about seven or eight of his courses to still visit.  I am happy to say, however, that I have played and/or walked/studied at least 20 of them more than three or four times each.  As Wayne and others will attest, you need to study a Flynn course (or any great course) more than once or twice to really understand just how good some of these designs really are.  Great golf courses need to be studied and played often to really be learned.      
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 10:15:37 AM by Mark_Fine »

Kyle Harris

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2007, 10:21:30 AM »
Wayne,

Perhaps a tyop on your part, but I see you have 27 holes listed for Manufacturers?

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2007, 10:29:20 AM »
It was.  Thanks for the correction.

D_Malley

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2007, 10:52:35 AM »
mark
happy to hear that the PM project is still on, and i agree that it could be one of the best in the poconos.  i just love holes 3,4,5,6 on PM east, great holes with alot of strategy. and as you said you can really see a difference when you cross the road and play the flynn holes.  the flynn holes remind alot of merion west, which is another course that i have played well over 100 times.

David Stamm

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2007, 11:07:39 AM »
Thanks for the impressive list Wayne. This gets me more anxious for the book! No pressure or anything. ;)  
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Andy Hughes

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2007, 05:51:18 PM »
Wayne and Doug, thanks. Maybe this year I will spend one of my precious round on Rock Creek Park, though I clearly heard the reticence in your words.
I was fortunate to play Columbia two years ago; I'll assume it is not quite up to that level  ;)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 05:51:30 PM by Andy Hughes »
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Dan Moore

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2007, 10:49:46 AM »
Wayne,

Thanks for posting.  For some reason I thought Fylnn was more prolific, but I guess the number of quality courses and fact several are used as tournament venues led me astray.  Very interesting to see all the courses in one place.

Seeing Shinnecock in the list of designs however makes me wonder how you are distinguishing between design's and redesigns.

 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2007, 11:24:27 AM »
Shinnecock Hills is a Flynn course.  While four greens are situated on the site of old Macdonald greens (the current 2nd,3rd,7th and 9th) they were all remodeled with the possible exception of 3.  Billing records indicate that 3 was redesigned but either all of the green space indicated in the plans may have not been built or maintained for very long.  Of those 4 green sites, the 2nd is a par 3 where Macdonald's 12th was a short par 5 playing from a slightly different direction (the approach shot was much different); the 3rd is played from tees on the left side of the 2nd green while Macdonald's played from the right side of the green.  Three bunker sites were retained but significantly resized and reshaped.  The 7th played from a different tee by Flynn, which is being restored as the Macdonald tee is the one currently in use.  The 7th green was raised significantly and redesigned.  The bunkering scheme for the 7th was entirely new.  In fact, the Macdonald bunkering was completely different than other Redan bunkers looking more like Biarritz bunkers flanking the green.  The 9th hole is played from tees by Flynn further back than the Macdonald tees.  The Flynn green was saddled into the hillside while the Macdonald green was perched above the surrounding grade.  Every other hole is completely original.  Every hole is played from a Flynn tee to a Flynn green with only three hole corridors in common with the pre-existing design but with different bunkering.  

I designate a Flynn design on courses where the overwhelming majority of design is Flynn.  In the case of Shinnecock Hills, it is basically 100% Flynn.  As for TCC, Brookline and Merion East, the courses are close to my threshold for designating them as Flynn courses.  In the case of Merion East, Wilson was the man in charge for most of the changes, so I wouldn't presume that the changes were initiated by Flynn but rather through their unique working relationship.  The changes after Wilson died can be attributed soley to Flynn.  I am confident that the redesigns are Flynn (we have all the drawings) but the concepts cannot be limited to Flynn.  So Merion stays a Wilson but to be more accurate, it can readily be thought of as a Wilson/Flynn design.

As for TCC in Brookline, 11 of the 27 holes are Flynn designs, at least until Cornish and then Jones did their work decades later.  He redid nearly all of the greens and 90% of the bunkers on the course.  Yet, I have not designated it a Flynn course for the list.  It is arguable that it could be.

If Flynn came in and redesigned 9 existing holes and added 9 holes, I would typically designate that a Flynn design.  Where Flynn made a few changes, it is not represented as a Flynn course but a rather a course with redesigns by Flynn.  On such courses, I note the number of holes that are redesigns.  In the body of the Flynn book, the details are presented.

Anyone is free to determine what is or is not a design or redesign.  I assure you that the book contains enough detail for someone to decide for themselves.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 11:37:56 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Craig_Rokke

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2007, 09:16:31 PM »
Dan,

6 is the short (119 yards) downhill (70 feet) that starts the quirky corner at Merion West.  I hope to get over to Phoenixville tomorrow, possibly with Mike Cirba.  Do you want to join us?

I'll be curious to hear what you all think of Phoenixville. My Mom took up golf a couple of years ago and plays there. For
its limited yardage, and just 9 holes, I think its pretty enjoyable.

Also, Wayne, I didn't see Concord CC on your list. At one point, didn't you attribute it to Flynn?

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2007, 06:54:58 AM »
Hey, Craig.  Phoenixville was not open.  I guess the place is closed in January.  There was so much fog on Sunday that we decided to put the visit off till later.  I do want to see the course though and look forward to doing so.

Brinton Lake Club is the original name of the course for what would become Concord CC.  After a time, BLC was owned by Wilmington CC.  When it was spun off, the name was changed to Concord.  There are some excellent Flynn holes there and one good Cornish redesign.

Chris_Blakely

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2007, 07:33:02 AM »
Wayne,

How many courses did Flynn do in Ohio? Is it just Elyria, The CC at Pepper Pike and Pepper Pike Club?

What work did he do and Women's National GC?  That is weird that he would have been there in 1926 which is about 2 years after the opening??

Chris

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2007, 07:55:02 AM »
Chris,

Excellent questions.  While we know that Flynn designed three excellent courses around Cleveland, with The Country Club being particularly fine, he was in Toledo, OH for a time working with E.J. Marshall, the green chairman of Inverness in late 1921, after their US Open.  We don't know if he was there for agronomic or architectural purposes.

As for Women's National, now Glen Head, we don't know for sure what Flynn was doing...whether for construction or design and construction matters.  We do know that he was paid $7,500 itemized as golf course construction on Dec. 17, 1926 and that he was paid $7,575 for the same on April 22, 1927.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2007, 07:55:27 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Chris_Blakely

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2007, 09:30:27 AM »
Wayne,

Thanks for the info.  Do you know if he did any other work in the Cleveland area?

As for Women's National, I knew in C&W Flynn was listed as having done some renovation work.  I know that the layout is pretty close to the original Emmet course.  I never knew that he worked on the course that close to the original opening of it.  My original reaction was here we go, another Tillinghastlike archictect willing to renovate any course of any architect no matter when it opened and often not for the best.  But this again was my original reaction - if he did the original construction of the course or it had turf problems, that would be much different.  If you find out more, please let me know what he did at Glen Head (Women's National).

Thanks,
Chris

Geoffrey Childs

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2007, 10:09:59 AM »
Wayne

Good stuff.  It was my understanding that Flynn did construction work at Westchester CC.  What exactly did he do to the courses to merit redesign credit?

Prystowsky's course profile here in the in my opinion section has a chronological group of aerials that show the evolution of a reversible course with lots of pot bunkers and few trees to the course we have today.  I have not looked at it recently but I don't see major changes in the time frame Flynn would have worked on it.

Thanks

mike_malone

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2007, 10:25:53 AM »
 I hope he didn't build those hideous walls around the tees at Westchester!
AKA Mayday

Kirk Gill

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2007, 10:58:07 AM »
Mr. Morrison - in your opinion, how much of what is currently on the ground at Denver Country Club can be attributed to Flynn?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

wsmorrison

Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2007, 02:01:00 PM »
Chris,

I don't know of any other work in the Cleveland area besides the three mentioned.  I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't stop in at other clubs while he was in the area.  Do you suspect any additional work there?

As for Women's National, the historian at the Creek Club just found a bunch of records from Women's National at his club.  For a time the women's club was incorporated into the Creek.  We're just starting to research the records and this is all we've found so far.  Fifteen thousand dollars was a lot of money back then...too much for just agronomic work.  If I had to guess, I'd say some construction and/or redesign work was done.  Maybe a couple of holes were redone.  Flynn was doing work at the Creek Club at the time.  I hope we can figure it out.  We don't have any idea what, if anything, Flynn may have done at the Tuxedo Club.


Geoff,

Flynn did construct the Westchester-Biltmore course according to Travis's design plans.  He may have been involved in redesigning the following (though we don't know for sure):

The first hole was changed from a short downhill dogleg left par four to a straightaway hole.

The original second hole, a mid-length par three was eliminated.  In its place a new par three of similar yardage was built between original holes five and six.

The long par four sixth hole was straightened from its original form as a sharp dogleg right.

In order to differentiate the twelfth hole from the similar fourth, the twelfth was shortened so that the tee shot landed in a valley.


Kirk,

With a lot of help from GCAer Doug Wright, it appears that the current 6th,7th,15th,16th and 17th holes correspond to the 12th, 13th, 5th, 6th and 7th Flynn hole designs.

Mark_Fine

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Re:A List of Courses by William S. Flynn
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2007, 08:39:33 PM »
Kirk,
As Wayne says, those five holes at Denver CC might correspond to Flynn holes but I think all that is left are the hole "corridors".  Maybe Doug has time to elaborate his thoughts.
Mark