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Joe Bentham

Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« on: February 01, 2007, 09:46:11 PM »
Mackenzie said he'd favored disappearing bunkers "...traps, which though glaringly visible from a position when facing the green, fade out when looked at from the reverse direction"  My question is besides the visual trick, what's the point?
#15 at Pacific Dunes comes to mind.  All four of the fairway bunkers completely disappear from the green when looking back.  The only impact I see it having on the golf is a psychological one.  When leaving the green players often look back down the fairway they just played up.  I can't help but think many players leave 15 green, look back down the fairway and wonder how they just made bogey.
Any other non-Mackenzie examples?  Any thoughts as to why Alister liked these type of bunkers, and what impact they might have on players?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2007, 11:15:08 PM »
One of the coolest examples of that I've ever seen is Brocket Hall in England, just outside the M25 NW of London.

Designed by Peter Allis, it's on the stately grounds of the manor house of Lord Brocket, which has been turned into an upper class conference venue.

The instructions to Allis were that nothing that resembled a golf course was to be seen from the manor house which is in the middle of the place.

So all the bunkers on #1 and #9 and #10 and #18 are designed to be invisible from the manor house.  You really can't tell that's true from the holes you are playing, so it's some very good work.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2007, 11:57:48 PM »
One of the coolest examples of that I've ever seen is Brocket Hall in England, just outside the M25 NW of London.

Designed by Peter Allis, it's on the stately grounds of the manor house of Lord Brocket, which has been turned into an upper class conference venue.

The instructions to Allis were that nothing that resembled a golf course was to be seen from the manor house which is in the middle of the place.

So all the bunkers on #1 and #9 and #10 and #18 are designed to be invisible from the manor house.  You really can't tell that's true from the holes you are playing, so it's some very good work.

Bill
That is a very cool example. I wonder why Aliss didn't amass more of a body of work. His heart seems in the right place and he's a smart bloke. I guess he was busy...

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 05:35:50 AM »
There may be a reason for this…

Lord Brocket served a term in Jail for insurance fraud. He claimed his Ferrari’s were stolen when in fact they were buried in one of those bunkers.  Is it possible he couldn’t face the thought of seeing them from the stately home? ;D

From the blurb to his autobiography

“Born into the aristocracy and imbued with the ethos of the privileged; public service, the young Lord Brocket served in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces and in the House of Lords on the cross-benches. But the Old Etonian’s hedonistic lifestyle came to a sudden halt when he was found guilty of conspiracy to defraud an insurance company.
Sentenced to seven years, Brocket served at Her Majesty’s Pleasure for two and a half years. He departed prison, a different man; humbled by the experience; no longer a toff but a man able to look anyone in the eye. Or so he claims. But Brocket was always an exhibitionist; he chose to speed away from the prison on a gleaming Harley Davidson motorbike, clad in a black leather biker's jacket and jeans. It was typical Brocket style.
Jailed in 1996 after breaking up and hiding three Ferraris and a Maserati from his £20m collection, Brocket claimed they had been stolen in a bid to clear his debts. His troubles began when he converted his family estate, Brocket Hall, into a premier hotel and conference venue. As the money rolled in, he bought Ferrari cars as an investment. At the time, the cars were tripling in value in just two years. But when the market collapsed over-night, the bank called in its £5 million loan and laid claim to Brocket Hall. He was horrified. He stayed up all night to read the small print – only to find that he foolishly and unknowingly had secured the loan on his ancestral home. “I could have sued my lawyers – but I just didn’t think to do so. I panicked. The insurance fraud seemed the answer. Though as matter of fact, I did withdraw the claim as soon as I received an offer of a 15 year loan from a bank”.
Charlie, as he styles himself now, almost got away without being found out. “A year passed and then I received a knock on the door from the police”. His wife had grassed him. It was a devastating blow. “In most other countries what I did, would never have led to prison, but in good old Britain conspiracy to defraud is treated more serverly than actual fraud”, he says with scorn.
“My wife and I should never have married. We were quite unsuited” he says. But they were a glamourous couple, when they wed. At the time, Charlie - or to give his full title, Sir Charles Ronald George Nall-Cain, Third Baron Brocket, was a big catch; Young, rich and titled. His bride, Isa, was at the time a top international model. But the marriage soured as Isa developed an addiction to painkillers. This led to her arrest for faking drug prescriptions and the revelations of Brocket’s fraud.”
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 05:43:00 AM »
Mackenzie said he'd favored disappearing bunkers "...traps, which though glaringly visible from a position when facing the green, fade out when looked at from the reverse direction"  My question is besides the visual trick, what's the point?
#15 at Pacific Dunes comes to mind.  All four of the fairway bunkers completely disappear from the green when looking back.  The only impact I see it having on the golf is a psychological one.  When leaving the green players often look back down the fairway they just played up.  I can't help but think many players leave 15 green, look back down the fairway and wonder how they just made bogey.
Any other non-Mackenzie examples?  Any thoughts as to why Alister liked these type of bunkers, and what impact they might have on players?


Joe

My guess is that if bunkers are "invisible" after you walk by them (much like waves disappear on the open sea once they travel past) than the bunkers are much more likely to blend into the surrounds - at least at eye level.  Plus, I think it makes it much more difficult to learn how to play the hole by looking at it backwards.  I know when I come across a hole that is perplexing I will take a good look from the green back down the fairway to figure it out.  

Ciao

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New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

ForkaB

Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 06:04:44 AM »
The converse to this is, of course, the Old Course, where bunkers are often invisible heading towards the green, but highly visible from the green looking backward, due to the fact that the course was "designed" back to front and then reversed.

You need bunkers which are built up in "front" to achieve this effect, no matter in which direction the effect is in effect.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 06:10:34 AM »
One of the coolest examples of that I've ever seen is Brocket Hall in England, just outside the M25 NW of London.

Designed by Peter Allis, it's on the stately grounds of the manor house of Lord Brocket, which has been turned into an upper class conference venue.

The instructions to Allis were that nothing that resembled a golf course was to be seen from the manor house which is in the middle of the place.

So all the bunkers on #1 and #9 and #10 and #18 are designed to be invisible from the manor house.  You really can't tell that's true from the holes you are playing, so it's some very good work.
I have a similar project at the moment where from the east, the view must resemble the existing landscape, any bunker must not been seen. The landscape officer is worried about the 'yellow' of the sand, the vivid green colours of the greens and tees, striping of fairways, pathways. It will be an interesting concept, although I think it is achievable. Its just going to ba another factor to consider on how I can hide things from the eastern view.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 07:34:51 AM »
I've never had a job where we were required to keep the view from one direction pristine, that sounds interesting, although I don't really understand it since the flags and the mowing lines and the golf carts are pretty much a dead giveaway.

However, I know that lots of our bunkers have the effect you are speaking of.  It's not a deliberate attempt on my part at all, just a side-effect of trying to always place bunkers into a natural upslope, or if there is none there, to create an upslope with the excavated material so it looks as though one was there (and taking time to tie in the edges of the fill over a long and subtle slope so it's tough to tell where the fill starts).

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 10:43:45 AM »
Isn't Fazio known for doing this?  At my course, virtually none of the bunkers can be seen looking back.  It was something that was pointed out to me when I first joined by the super...

bbarkley

Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 11:18:53 AM »
I have read that Dr. Mackenzie gained interest in “camouflaging” his bunkers (golfing type) after serving in the Boer wars.  He was very intrigued in how the Boers were able to hide their bunker (military type) placements.  Mackenzie liked to camouflage his bunkers into the natural landscape, and as Mr. Doak has stated, this called for placing them in the natural slopes.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 06:18:15 AM »
Early photos of some of Mac's bunkers at Alwoodley show that they were raised up above the putting surface, being mounds with a face scraped out and filled with sand.  They would only have been visible as mounds looking back.  I don't know when these were removed, but they are below the putting surface today. I'm thinking in particular of the short 11th.

TEPaul

Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 10:17:13 AM »
In my opinion, the fact that many of Mackenzie's bunkers "disappeared" if you turned around and looked backwards down a hole is not the point at all of his application of "camouflage" that he picked up during the Boer War.

I believe the entire point of his "camouflage" technique that he applied to golf architecture was that it "tied in" seamlessly what he made with what was natural and so it was almost impossible to tell what was man-made and what wasn't when you played the golf hole from tee to green.

That was the part he wanted to be invisible---eg the "tie ins". I don't think it had anything to do with intentionally making them invisible if you looked at them backwards. That was probably nothing more than an interesting and perhaps even unexpected by-product.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 10:24:50 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Mackenzie's 'disappering bunkers'
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2007, 10:23:41 AM »
Furthermore, Mackenzie certainly did mention another of his interested observations about what the Boers did with military trench camouflage during the Boer War.

He mentioned that not only did the Boers use the natural characteristic of the land in building their totally camouflaged trenches but they also built highly visible and geometric trenches just like the British did in the Boer War.

Want to guess why they did that?

Thank God Mackenzie didn't apply that part of the "bait and switch" Boer trench technique in golf course architecture!  ;)

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