[mike_beene]

The world 18 holes thread got me to thinking of 18 at Pebble,which is beautiful and probably on the most expensive real estate,but,is it the leat interesting 5 at Pebble?Yes,techology has hurt 2,but I like its place in the round and if you miss the fairway the cross bunker really makes you think.6 is a neat drive and perhaps the most fun uphill shot in golf because its blind and you know what is to come.14 ,a truly interesting 3 shotter with the green complex making even the longest think about where their second shot goes(even if they get there its not staying)18,was really a 3 shotter until recently.It has fairway trees,real estate features and really doesn't leave me many memories.It is better with tecnology.Your thoughts?

[Rick Shefchik]

I'll still take #18. Then it's a toss-up between 14 and 6, though I find 14 more strategic. #2 brings up the rear, in my opinion.

I think #18 is the best par 5 I've ever played. If you tend to hook the ball, as I do, it fits your eye but it also puts the fear of God in you. If you hit a fade or a slice, you have to decide how much of the rocks and ocean you're willing to traverse before your ball curves back onto dry land. If you can count on a reliably straight shot, you have to decide how aggressive a line you can afford to take. The second shot pinches your layup, or gives you lots to worry about if you're long enough to carry the green. Did I mention the scenery?

An unbelievably great hole that you won't find the like of anywhere else in the world. The other par 5s at Pebble range from great to ordinary, but they're not in 18's league.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I'll still take #18. Then it's a toss-up between 14 and 6, though I find 14 more strategic. #2 brings up the rear, in my opinion.

I think #18 is the best par 5 I've ever played. If you tend to hook the ball, as I do, it fits your eye but it also puts the fear of God in you. If you hit a fade or a slice, you have to decide how much of the rocks and ocean you're willing to traverse before your ball curves back onto dry land. If you can count on a reliably straight shot, you have to decide how aggressive a line you can afford to take. The second shot pinches your layup, or gives you lots to worry about if you're long enough to carry the green. Did I mention the scenery?

An unbelievably great hole that you won't find the like of anywhere else in the world. The other par 5s at Pebble range from great to ordinary, but they're not in 18's league.

18th is awesome, 2nd is not bad, 6th as a hole is ok at best and 14 I dislike. Perhaps Pebble is like TOC you need to play it more than once.

[Adam Clayman]

The closer at Pebble requires thought and execution on every single stroke. House lined holes really need to be great golf holes to be considered great. From the ambiance to the tradition, the 18th fits the bill and anyone (but chipoat) who doesn't get their blood racing through every capillary is mostly dead.

[tlavin]

I think #18 is the best par 5 I've ever played.

High praise, indeed, but I can't agree.

Here's the description from PB's website:

Set up for three shots on this hole. The best tee shot is to the left of the trees. The second shot is ideally placed on the left side of the fairway to avoid the tree overhanging the green. Your short iron into the green must carry the frontal bunker. And finally, putts will tend to fall oceanside.


In my view, the hole is undeniably a natural beauty, despite the ugly presence of the Lodge adjacent to the fairway.  It has unbelievable history, by virtue of its age and the many championships that have been played there.  But I think most will agree that the green is somewhat non-descript, if well protected.  And everybody has to agree that a player could hit a perfect drive and hit a fricking tree in the middle of the fairway.  Or hit a great shot into the green and hit a fricking tree right in front of the bunker that's in front of the green.  Maybe Pebble gets a pass on this because there were trees there for a long, long time, but they actually spent hundreds of thousands of dollars replacing one of the cypress trees a few years back.  So count me among those who thinks 18 is a pretty good par 5, one of most visually spectacular finishing holes and one of the most historically significant holes, but if somebody built a hole like that today, many would call it tricked up and artificial because of the trees and the man-made sea wall.

[Adam Clayman]

Terry, I've never heard the green described as non-descript before. Subtle is perhaps more appropriate. The massive size compared to the 17 one just played is somewhat of a throw off. It's sections are hard to read. As a someone who has caddied there, in my recollection, I never ever felt 100% comfortable with any read outside of 10 feet. The slight ridge that runs vertical to the golfer in the center left portion has a certain randomness to it's influence, often creating that feeling of wanting another go, if one misses.

As for the tree, it's placement makes the second shot all the more strategic and heart pounding knowing that one must flirt with the bunker and ocean left. Without that tree, any yahoo could just bomb and gauge his second and thrid shots. Diminishing the holes greatness, imo.

[Rick Shefchik]

Terry --

Since we're just expressing opinions here, I'd be interested to know which par 5s you think are better.

[tlavin]

Terry --

Since we're just expressing opinions here, I'd be interested to know which par 5s you think are better.

You're right, of course, this is all opinion and my motto, after all, is "often wrong, never in doubt", so I'm always subject to criticism, but there are any number of par 5's that are better, in my judgment.  I prefer 13 and 15 at Augusta, even though they are now reachable by the pros.  For us mere mortals, those holes are much more difficult than 18 at Pebble despite the fact that each is shorter by far than 18.  

I prefer the 8th hole at LA North.

I think the 15th at Shoreacres is more unique from a design standpoint.

I prefer the long par 5 on the back nine of Olympic Club, either 16 or 17, principally because its dogleg prevents everybody from hitting driver and therefore hitting the green in two shots.

I like the starting hole at Sand Hills better than the finisher at Pebble.

Heck, even 18 at my home course, Beverly, strikes me as a better and a more difficult golf hole than Pebble's.  (Of course, we have Western Avenue and the railroad tracks to the West, not to mention the airplanes on final landing to Midway to compete with the ocean...)

Now, let's be real, none of these holes is the final hole at Pebble Beach.  None has the Pacific pounding off to the left.  None of them has half as much history as Pebble, but just in terms of the layout of the holes themselves, I prefer the rest.

Often wrong...

[mike_beene]

I am generally not a lover of par 5s.14 of TOC and 5 at Muirfield(with the right and left levels) are favorites.Most par 5 holes seem like fillers or get clowns mouthy.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am generally not a lover of par 5s.14 of TOC and 5 at Muirfield(with the right and left levels) are favorites.Most par 5 holes seem like fillers or get clowns mouthy.

Mike- There may be a case that modern par 5 holes are better than many of the older ones. If you think c1890, people did not hit par 5 holes in two bangs; holes like 13 and 15 at Augusta are awesome R/R holes and those type of principles are adopted by modern arch's. These gambly type holes are often best incorporated with an easy par route possible eagle as 5 holes. Old fashioned '5's were more definite three shotters and perhaps these have been destroyed with the coming of the 300 yard drive. I cant really think of a great par 5 on the open rota, the last great would have been the 11th at Troon but thats a 4 now. I think 5 holes are still interesting to the handicap golfer though.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Beene,

I think the four par 5's at Pebble Beach are as good a set as  you'll find.

They're certainly diverse.

All are interesting and challenging in different ways.

Add the catalyst of wind and they're all enhanced ... dramatically.

As to which one I prefer, I couldn't say.  I like the challenge that each one presents.

[mike_beene]

Adrian,now that you mention it,Kingsbarnes has some good 5s.12 or 13? has a left to right curve but feels different than 18 at Pebble.I really like the first par 5 there with the beach on right and some intimidating bunkering.I do find a short par 5 first hole puts me in a good mood(Bel-Air,Brook Hollow,Olympic and Cowboys )come to mind.

[mike_beene]

Pat,I agree.My point is that I really like all 4 and the famous 18 is not ,imop,the best there.

[Jeff Doerr]

Mike,

What stikes me about Pebble's 4 par 5s is the quality of the second shots. 2 - has the go/no go of the cross bunker. 6 - has the tremendous uphill blind shot. 14 - can be reached by the longest, but the green demands such preceision on the 3rd. I remember Faldo putting for eagle just off the green in '92. His 80 footer almost crested the ridge and finally after what seemed to be an eternity, it came to rest 3 feet from where he first hit the putt! 18 - a 3 wood to a green hard by the sea...

What great set!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Beene,

As a finishing hole, # 18 is pretty strong in almost every way.

The risk/rewards, optional lines of play, optional shot selections, the Ocean and the wind all conspire to make it a memorable finishing hole, especially after the par 3 17th.

I like the unique qualities all par 5's possess, and given the site, I think they designed a pretty solid finishing hole.

To a degree, additional length may be some what muted by the dogleg nature of the hole and the Ocean on the left.

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, is 18 a hole that has gotten better, due to technology?  

In the 1960's, 70's, 80's and 90's, I virtually never saw pro's go for the green in two.  Everyone I saw on TV laid up with their 2nd.  Now I get the sense that is not always true.  

Have the new balls and clubs brought the 18th green within range for more pro's, making more exciting possible options on the 2nd shot?  Has this improved the hole?  

BTW, TW is the one guy I saw hit 18 pre vast tech.  In 1997 he busted a 3 wood 280 or so yards onto the front portion of the green.  Lift and clean conditions in the fairways that day.  

[Bob Jenkins]

I have always thought of #2 as one of the weakest holes I have played and thought it seemed out of place at Pebble. Just too weak. Seems to me that it could have been a lot more interesting if it was a par 4.

The other par 5s at Pebble are all classics and all so different. On 6 you have a chance to get there in two but even if you have to lay up, it is still a challenge. 14 is truly a 3 shotter and that means your third must be accurate which is exactly what the green demands. 18 is 18. Great drive and then maybe a chance to get there in two but depends how much of the ocean you cut off. For 95% of us I suspect it is always a 3 shotter unless the wind is big time at your back which is not often.

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